What's wrong with people?

[lantraxco]

Not to derail the thread, but what Delmer said about dropping out of high school hit a nerve. College used to be the holy grail, and a degree almost guaranteed good money and better working conditions. I knew things had gone downhill, but a couple recent news reports raised my hackles. It seems the majority of first year college students fresh from America's finest taxpayer funded school districts are reading at a 7th grade level. Wow. Add to that the fact that college tuition has risen faster than ANY other expense, way beyond even healthcare! Then there are the expanded course lines to choose from and you get kids coming out with a quarter million in student loan debt (which it looks like the taxpayers will end up paying after a few years, another Obummer discomplishment) and a degree in something eminently useful like "Gender studies" (I thought that's what the kids did at the frat keggers?) or Sociology? If we're going to survive as a nation we need to be opening more and better schools that allow students to learn something useful, trade type schools, with "Engineering light" programs along with welding, machine work, mechanical repair, etc. The college system we have today is only a boon to the ever instatiable finance industry, always hoovering up it's profits from the taxpayers since they get guaranteed profits while the rest of us get guaranteed IRS notices, and the teachers and admins, the majority of which are either Vietnam era draft dodgers or members of the Weather Underground or both. When they do teach, it's often about how bad our country is and how the students need to tear it down... remind anyone of the protests of the 60's? They're still going on, by proxy, and funded by us. Rant mode off, sorry.

 

[JNB]

Rant completely understood...and should be a thread of its own!

Mike Rowe (Dirty Jobs) has been campaigning pretty hard for the trades with scholarships and such, as an alternative to a college degree in some worthless subject.http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/. He has some pretty good videos on the subject that are well worth watching.

 

[chansey]

College Educated

There will always be disagreements about education at whatever level it may be. Dropping out of school can be caused by many issues which are present today and may not be in the future. Many drop out because they don't want to learn or unable to fully grasp what the class work is conveying.

A dropout is not necessarily a lost sole destined for poverty. I have seen it more than once where a student will drop out of school because they are functioning well above the courses they are required to take. In a few instances I have observed where a student is forced to remain in school in the 10th grade and he only needs 4 class semesters to graduate and drops out because it is a waste of his time to remain in school. Gets a GED and challenges college courses in Math, Science and English and ends up with 45 units his first semester. Many schools are just not able to accommodate advanced students just as they struggle with slow learners.

There are also those individuals who learn best by observation and doing things hands on. Some can barely read or write and they become very skilled in the job they chose as a career. I have had students working on their master's degree go into the field and work to gain hands on experience. Some excel and others just don't have it.

Reminds me of the situation on a late Sunday afternoon, where the bathroom backed up in an attorney's home. Tried the plunger--didn't work. Got on the phone and reached Joe's plumbing who could be at his home in 20 minutes. Joe arrived and 15 minutes later he's finished and hands the attorney the bill. The attorney can believe it, $250 for 15 minutes work !!!! I'm a good lawyer and I don't make that much. Joe looks at him and says, "I didn't either when I was a lawyer."

Paul

 

[CM1995]

I have learned in my 40 plus years on this rock hurdling through space that intelligence is measured in infinite ways.

 

[FSERVICE]

im going to add to this (sorry bout the soapbox rant) I have been in the repair end of this business since I was in diapers (yes literally) started with my dad, it used to be on Saturdays & in the summer when I was out of school we would go to supply houses to get something there would be other kids in there with their dads... now days the supply houses are all "guys" in their 50s & older getting parts, you don't see any young service people anymore!!! whats going to happen when these guys start retiring or dying off?? theres a real shortage of trained mechanics, not parts changers (sorry if that offends someone).. In the next 10 years we are going to see this problem get worse & none of the young people think they should have to get dirty to make a living... my buddy is always giving the Spanish people down the road for taking jobs, my response "theres no white guy that will work/do that job" I hate to say it cause I was brought up to work hard for everything I have.. but so many are standing waiting on a handout instead of looking for a job!!! soapbox lecture over for now!!

 

[JDOFMEMI]

That is a very good observation.

I am concerned, as most of the young people do not want to do "hard" work. There used to be willing youth that wanted to learn a trade, where now they have been convinced they need to go to college to be worth anything. The youth are not getting into cars and hot rods much these days, and there seems to be little to draw them to the trade.

I hate to admit, but my own sons have no interest in my trade, and after working for a few weeks, quit and said that the work was too hard.

I wish now I would have learned to speak spanish while I was in school, though now I would encourage young people to learn to speak that as well as chinese. It seems that is where there are people found that are willing to work hard to get somewhere.

 

[wrwtexan]

I can personally attest to the attitude that young people nowadays don't want to work for anything, especially if they have to get dirty. I'm 34 and have been performing custom farm repair since high school, through a 4 year university degree, alongside a fulltime job for 8 years, and now am making more money and setting my own schedule working for myself. I have an Industrial Technology degree that is of little value to me now. I've had more customers than I can count tell me how there is NO one willing to work on their older machinery and they can forget about field service. My customer list and service area can attest to that. I have no professional training and am busier than a cat burying s*%t so there is a market but no one is willing to fill it. Individuals I've known who could (my age and younger) are too lazy to do it and have said as much. I'm getting dealership referrals for older machines that can't be plugged into a computer to tell a tech what's wrong instead of figuring it out himself.
I was "encouraged" by my parents to get a university degree, but I intend to let my son figure out what he wants, and maybe try to gently steer him into learning a skilled trade that can be immediately put to use. He at 2 already knows what to do with a wrench.
The world may run by computers but they can't do anything but tell a machine what to do so there will always be a need for someone who can fix things.

 

[kshansen]

I see this problem from two directions. First is too many in education that think working with ones hands is something people who don't have the intelligence to do college level work are to be pushed into. I had just the opposite problem, back in 1966 the local schools were just starting a tech type school. I tried to get into the program for auto mechanics. I was told no way! I was "Too smart" and should be going to college. I thought this may have changed over the years but my brother who just retired as a principal in just one of those tech schools tells me that the guidance counselors still want to use the tech schools as a dumping ground for problem students who can't handle normal school work or are discipline problems in the regular school.

Then there is the side of the problem with too many in management positions in some companies who think they can throw just anyone off the street into a shop with an adjustable wrench and screw driver and expect them to fix something like a 980K Cat loader. "You want us to spend money on training?" "Do you know haw much that communications tool for that computer you have will cost?" "Why do you need access to the internet for SIS?"

 

[maddog]

Problem with college is that it is a corporation, it's about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s not education, much the same as regular schooling.

 

[Old Doug]

One big problem people cant think for them selfs when it comes to stuff like college. Alot of people think that life is a set path were you go to school then college then get married and have kids. I know of several guys that have big college dets and will never use what they learned to pay this det off. I think it is very important to finish school so as to build the skills to see something through.Its a diffrent world today. I growed up wanting to have things and i needed money to get them. I got along at home but i didnt want to have to do what my dad want me to do so i had the want to move out. Now kids dont have to do much or any thing at home so why leave. I had alot of wants when i was in school i wanted my Drivers license, a pickup and a motorcycle.I can remember day dreaming about the day i would have stuff that i wanted and that gave me the drive to work. Now most kids dont have this drive.I have a good buddy that has a woman liveing with him with 2 boys. My bubby works on the city water deptment. He likes his job and i like haveing runing water but those boys only see the sun when their geting on the buss. It makes me think that i need to drill a well in my yard so when my buddy retires i will have water.

 

[kshansen]

Problem with college is that it is a corporation, it's about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s not education, much the same as regular schooling.

And don't get me started on the money they pay coaches and how many they need for each sport!

 

[Randy88]

The latest statistics show the average person today entering the workforce will change careers 7 times in their lifetime, not jobs, careers, translating into nothing they went or will go to college for.............they will ever actually use.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . It is concerning to see the problem is all over.

A few years back the local school asked if I would be prepared to take young blokes on for "work experience" at the golf course . . . just a couple of hours a week.

It was an eye opener for me, I never realised kids could be so useless. I only took the four, two at a time over a six week period.

They showed complete lack of interest, cracked up when I insisted phones were left at the shed, lacked the dexterity to actually manipulate a ten inch adjustable spanner with one hand and only one of them could use a bloody screw driver . . . these kids were fourteen or fifteen!

At that age I had built a couple of dams with a Fowler crawler and a Tumbling Tommy scoop, I could weld a bit and was right into souping up two stroke motor bikes . . . at the same time I had acquired all the formal reading and writing and arithmetic I was ever going to get.

Some thing has gone awfully wrong with education and it is difficult to understand how we could have gone from a world that put flights of bombers over Germany (and Britain) with crew ages averaging less than twenty one to the youth of today who can only drive a phone . . . it is not the kids fault it is the way society has shaped them and I certainly can't suggest any answers.

Cheers.

 

[lantraxco]

Scrub, I agree with you and several of the other posters about today's youth, but I saw the seeds of it in my youth. It isn't just the schools fault as I think you know, it's on the parents a lot too, AND the silly ass government regs that say you can't have kids working, it's dangerous and hard on them. How the hell will they learn about the real world if they never see it? No wonder the big concerns are ruled by the safety morons these days, we keep trying to make enough rules so that eventually nothing will get done, filing the safety report might cause a paper cut! It comes down to a societal thing, along with too much technology I think.

 

[kshansen]

No wonder the big concerns are ruled by the safety morons these days, we keep trying to make enough rules so that eventually nothing will get done, filing the safety report might cause a paper cut!

I'd love to have to fill out that report! Almost as good as a few weeks ago I was waking along with a part on a hand cart and just as I got to the door for the wash-bay stepped on some ice under the snow and went flat on my back. When I hit the ground got a cut on the top of my head from the adjuster of my hard hat!

 

[John C.]

I agree with most everything said in this thread. I do have a bit different take on the education thing though. Basically we have let the education industry decide the direction and flow of the country. The public four year universities in this country, where the bulk of college students get their indoctrination, are for the most part, people who cycled from degree to university job without ever seeing any kind of endeavor that has a profit associated with it. The students who are thrust into the real world are terribly unprepared and it takes more time to break the brain washing before they can contribute towards a profit margin. They bring the mind set though that only a person with a degree can operate a business. They know it because some professor told them so. All this just connects back to the snake eating his tail.

This system is now ingrained and you don't have a chance to change it because there is a catch 22. You see you don't get a voice in the process of change unless you have a degree. If you have a degree you have a stake in the system and have been trained not make any attempts to change it.

 

[buckfever]

When was the last time you saw a kid pushing a mower down the street to make a couple of bucks on the weekend? I'm only 32 and had a couple of buddies that use to do this all summer long.

Some of you might think I'm wrong but my boy will come up in this business the same way I did. At his dads side every weekend before the sun comes up and learning everything I can make stick in his hard head. There will be no sleeping in to 10:00 then watching cartoons till noon. Even if he hates my guts and wants nothing to do with his grandpaps business he WILL have a work ethic that will make him the best at what ever he want to do.

 

[mitch504]

I agree with most everything said in this thread. I do have a bit different take on the education thing though. Basically we have let the education industry decide the direction and flow of the country. The public four year universities in this country, where the bulk of college students get their indoctrination, are for the most part, people who cycled from degree to university job without ever seeing any kind of endeavor that has a profit associated with it. The students who are thrust into the real world are terribly unprepared and it takes more time to break the brain washing before they can contribute towards a profit margin. They bring the mind set though that only a person with a degree can operate a business. They know it because some professor told them so. All this just connects back to the snake eating his tail.

This system is now ingrained and you don't have a chance to change it because there is a catch 22. You see you don't get a voice in the process of change unless you have a degree. If you have a degree you have a stake in the system and have been trained not make any attempts to change it.

John, I believe this may well be the most profound, well thought out, and relevant thing ever posted on HEF! :notworthy

The only thing I can add is: don't forget to look at what has happened to tuition costs and salaries in higher education, they have both skyrocketed.

Even "lower education" in this state at least is one of the highest paid careers. In SC, a 23 y/o 1st grade teacher with a master's starts at over $50,000, with no experience. Of course, they still talk about how tough the heroic teachers have it financially....

 

[Randy88]

Its been said for decades, those that can't, they get jobs to teach and its more true today then ever.

Colleges and universities are experts in one thing, advertising to get kids to come to their school, its in the media every day, kids are indoctrinated with it every day from kindergarten on, the older they get the more the advertising and high pressure sales are on to get students to attend, most boarder line criminal what they do and say to attract kids. Now online colleges are popping up all over the country and its one of the largest growing ways to target older people to attend, those either misplaced from a current job or looking for something different to do with their lives.

As for directing the country, I'd say instead its manipulating the kids of the country via the media, its got nothing to do with education, its dollar driven as far as profits for the colleges. Sports are the worst, most kids are attracted to sports and colleges know this, that's why full ride scholarships are given to athletes in every aspect of sports out there.

Any parent that's ever gone to college visit day with their kids can experience the full impact of advertising and manipulation they do, but until you stand back and actually take notes and reflect from a distance, they are so good at what they do, you don't even know what's being done to you, far better than used car salesmen or politicians will ever be. I've gone to my share of these things, and they are so good its an art form of sorts in how they operate, borderline criminal, but very good, more smoke and mirrors than you can ever imagine. If you've been a parent battling the system of any university, knows a totally new way of being blown off, told off and the true technique of intimidation and an old fashioned run around is truly all about.

As you may have guessed, I'm not a fan of any college, university or even tech schools by any means to say the least, my full opinions on this topic shouldn't be printed, as to how to solve the problem, in my experience dollars will always win over common sense and no amount of preaching or talking will deter or influence some kids, some experiences have to be lived, not told...............and so the problem is repeated over and over again.

 

[Nige]

Those who can - do.
Those who can't, go into teaching.
Those who can't do either of the aforementioned, go into politics...........