Seeking advice on best machine combo for specific job.

[ericscher]

I've got a road to repair that is up and down a mountain.

It's a mess, was never built right (411's/304's) on the surface and no wearing course in sight. AND... forget about getting a dumptruck in there until repaired.

My thinking to bulldoze it flat, put down a geo-grid from end to end to stabilize the road (which is steeper than it should be anyway) and bring in material one bucket at a time, grading it after.

As I doze it flat I will lose some spoils downhill (don't care) and some uphill that will need to be excavated back out of a swale that runs alongside the road so I can backfill it with Rip-Rap to catch the downhill water flow before it hits the road.

Obviously my plans are more involved than that, but for the purpose of this question that'll do.


I have a Tak TB135 that will be fine for mucking out the swale. It has a dozer blade on it but it's a bit small to be used for that portion.

I also have a Tractor with a front end loader and a grading device on the 3-point, but that's for later on.



Now, I could simply rent a small, but large enough dozer AND a Tracked loader of an appropriate size, with a nice big bucket to run material up the road.

It also occurred to me that perhaps I can rent a tracked loader that has a dozer style bucket and a material bucket which can be switched out. Problem is, I am not positive that I can find one that available nor that it is neccesarily the best approach in this situation.


What do you guys think...

Rent two machines, each for a specific purpose or find one (if I can) that has attachments to satisfy both needs?

 

[CM1995]

Without seeing the job it's hard to give advice, any pics?

Geogrid does very well in bridging soft soils and stabilizing any further lifts, it doesn't have much use in stopping wash if that's what your goal is.

Depending on the length and size of the drive way, a CTL and your mini could handle the job just fine, I wouldn't rent a dozer and a CTL unless you have some serious cut and fill to perform.

 

[movindirt]

Sounds like a 90+HP CTL would do the job to me, if you can loose most of the old material off the down hill side all you'll need is a good ol' regular tooth bucket. And if you can't you can dig and carry much easier with a CTL then a dozer Again, I have not seen the site obviously, just going off of your description.

 

[ericscher]

CM -

Please don't read too much into my over-simplifying. I've got over 2000 feet of badly rutted, poorly designed and constructed goat trail to deal with, much of it WAY the heck over the 14% grade that should be the max for gravel.
I do have comprehensive plans for repairing this mess, I am just trying to decide on part of my tool kit.



Movin -

I don't want to lose all of it downhill, I just know that I'm going to lose some in the process. Can't be helped.

I definitely want the capabilities of a dozer on this to push/pull material and flatten the mess into something resembling a road.

The question in my mind is whether I can get enough of those capabilities in a tracked loader with multiple blade/bucket attachments.

On the one hand, space is limited and having fewer machines is attractive. On the other, an SU blade would be handy for this work and I don't know if there even IS a CTL attachment SU blade, let alone whether it's too much of a compromise.



That's why I brought the question.
Hearing other people's thoughts can often help me clarify my own thinking.

 

[Foozzer]

How steep is this road, 5,10,15 percent, how long,100yRds,1/4 mile,longer, I was thinking it's not controlling the rain water that destroyed the road in the first place,so that would be my first thought,how do I get the water off my road and contained,I would only use geo-grid if the road is less than 5percent grade,anything steeper and I start with a foot of 2"-4" Rock ,6inches of 1"&1/4 minus,inverted crowns every 50-100ft. to steer the water into the ditch,sounds expensive I know,but my roads are bullet proof,as for the equip. If you can loose the extra material off to the sides you could cut the whole road from the top down with the tak.135 then rebuild it from the bottom up with track loader or a dozer and rock,just some thoughts let us know what you come up with I'm always looking for a new way to do the same old thing :drinkup

 

[Foozzer]

Forget the little rock stick with the larger 2"-4" and beat the heck out of it

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

Sounds a fairly typical driveway in tropical mountain country.

As CM it's hard to make suggestions without pictures . . . probably no need to overthink it.

If there is an existing "swale" or drain on the top side of the road that's half the battle won. I don't follow the mention of rip-rap or Geo.

I always reckon it is better to get rid of that highside water with concrete surface inverts or culverts under the road and a series of "wooboys" to interrupt the flow . . . rip-rap will silt up and you will get flow across the road where you don't want it.

If it's that steep gravity is your friend and you won't need as big a digger as you would down on the flat.

Cheers.

 

[td25c]

Something else I might add on Logging / limited access type roads generally will slope the road bed so water will run off to the side instead of making it flat or crowned in the center like a proper road .

Also as Scrub Puller stated we add some Wooboy's to divert water off the road . We call them waterbar's but I like Wooboy better .

Hang on to your barley soda mate as we are about to go over a Wooboy . LOL !

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/stewardship/accessroads/construction.htm

 

[ericscher]

Thanks for all the input guys.

I finally decided that the advantages of using a small dozer were too great to pass up and I bid it that way.


Not sure what's going to happen because I know the end client wasn't thinking about spending real money to fix the road, but if I can't do it right I'm not going to do it.

Side note: The equipment rental costs (because I don't own machines unless I use them a lot) are a fairly small amount of the cost. The biggest cost is the stone, which is over $30,000, then labor, then the grid.

On the GeoGrid vs stone question, the numbers vary but for this project (I spec'd Tensar's TX190) a layer of grid is roughly equivalent to 3" of stone in terms of cost; plus at 13' wide I can use it to stabilize the road AND the high-side drainage swale.


It could be argued that a Mil-Surp M113 APC would be a cheaper solution for ferrying supplies, but that's a bit outside the box for corporate types...

 

[td25c]

Yeah ericscher , I forgot to ask . What is the road used for ? High use going to a home site or just minimal use ounce in awhile leading to a field ?

Only time I might use geo cloth is when crossing a wet area in low / flat ground on a road . I might add we also over dig so the stone over the cloth is around 15 inches deep . Generally fill with # 53's . Other wise the cloth will just push up to the surface between the wheel tracks .

Would never use geo cloth in hill ground myself . If we run in to a seeping "wet spring " running out of the side of the hill run a short string of tile to dry up the area .

 

[ericscher]

Geo-Grid, not cloth.

http://www.tensarcorp.com/Systems-and-Products/Tensar-geogrids/Tensar-Triax-geogrid

I would have used the TX190L on this road, although for driveways I use the TX130S.

As for the cloth, I mainly use a water permeable type for boundary separation. Ohio has a LOT of clay.



The site is a Cell Tower, so they have routine maintenance visits and from time to time they need to refill the propane tank for the backup generator.

 

[td25c]

OK , Got it . Cell tower .

Still would not bother with the geo grid unless it was a low lying wet area .

We have some similar soil & terrain in south Indiana and I have set up several tower and commuication sites . The propane truck is the least of your worries .

The road will have to support concrete trucks , Big ol Grove crane to set the precast concrete equipment building & possibly build the tower . Most have went with the 12' X 30' buiding that tip the scale at 70,000 lbs.

Truck & lowboy hauling the building will be long & low slung to the ground so that can also be an issue .

At this time of year the weather is going to be a bigger factor then anything else depending on when they want to start construction .

D7 size dozer works good for building the road and um .......... dragging anything up the hill that wont make it under it's own power . LOL!

This will be a good job for you , Hope ya get it bro . It won't be boring

 

[td25c]

I tell ya what ....... Tiny is another member that could give some good insight on this topic as he has all the experience perspective from the truck drivers standpoint .

Yeah .... Tiny is who you are really building the road for as he or some truck pilot like him will be hauling in all the product to build the tower .

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?16788-How-about-NO-trailer&highlight=

Questions about building a road .......... Ask a trucker Bro !

 

[ericscher]

No, no... The tower was built some time ago.

The road was never built properly in the first place and was then allowed to deteriorate.

In fact, it appears to be loosely compacted 411's with no wearing course AT ALL.


Frankly, I'd like to get the job work because the job is so interesting. I love stuff where I really have to get creative and figure out how to deal with something.


BTW, I know a lot of Old School guys are not sold on geo-synthetics, but I'm not in that category. I've seen some amazing things done with them.


Here's a YouTube video that shows what I mean. It's only 2:11 sec and the payoff is right at the end... https://youtu.be/Ra4B5Tx4QCk

 

[CM1995]

I'm sold on geo-grids and geo fabric for poor subsoils and bridging but I've never seen it used on a steep drive to prevent washing or am I not reading something right.

The grids are great, we use them often to stabilize very poor soils.

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?27942-A-few-projects-I-have-done-recently/page12

 

[td25c]

No, no... The tower was built some time ago.

LOL! My bad eric


Totally understand your position wanting to fix the road properly by whatever means . That's cool !

Chances are being the tower site is up & running and this road is only used once in awhile the communications company will want to keep cost minimal .

If you want the job I would approach them with two estimates .

One being specked out heavy that will last long term . " high cost "

The other with minimal grading & materials at low cost but will need maintained more often .

Good luck with it !

 

[ericscher]

CM -

Please don't misunderstand. It's not a magic wand sort of thing, but it does provide resistance to lateral movement and is sort of bonds the whole surface that is under/over it, so it takes more energy to get it moving.
It's still going to need ongoing maintenance of course.



TD -

When I first went out I was visualizing something I could grade out for a few thousand and leave. MAYBE put down a thin layer of #4 Limestone and roll it out.

What I saw when I got there was much worse.

In fact, the worst part was that if you don't know what you're looking at, it doesn't actually look too bad.


On the way in I pointed to a spot and said to my assistant; "See that" That's what the road over a culvert looks like just before it collapses."

On the way out,l it did collapse. We lost a foot of edge off the road and came close to needing a wrecker.



The company, which I will not name, has been nickle and dime-ing this for years. They put down 411's with no wearing course on top, never finished the swale, let alone backfilled it properly, cut no other drainage in and didn't maintain it.


Well I hope they saved $80,000, because that's what it's going to cost them to fix it if I do it.



and you know...
If this were not a potentially life threatening situation I would give them an "El-Cheapo" option.

But it is, and NOBODY is going to die on one of my roads because of something I failed to do correctly.

 

[td25c]

TD -

When I first went out I was visualizing something I could grade out for a few thousand and leave. MAYBE put down a thin layer of #4 Limestone and roll it out.

What I saw when I got there was much worse.

In fact, the worst part was that if you don't know what you're looking at, it doesn't actually look too bad.


On the way in I pointed to a spot and said to my assistant; "See that" That's what the road over a culvert looks like just before it collapses."

On the way out,l it did collapse. We lost a foot of edge off the road and came close to needing a wrecker.



The company, which I will not name, has been nickle and dime-ing this for years. They put down 411's with no wearing course on top, never finished the swale, let alone backfilled it properly, cut no other drainage in and didn't maintain it.


Well I hope they saved $80,000, because that's what it's going to cost them to fix it if I do it.



and you know...
If this were not a potentially life threatening situation I would give them an "El-Cheapo" option.

But it is, and NOBODY is going to die on one of my roads because of something I failed to do correctly.

Yeah eric , at 80,000 for 2,000 feet of gravel road you won't have to worry about the job .:cool2

Communications company will hire some low lifer like me to come give them what they want . One day working with a D7 size dozer grading as needed .

Second day install needed culverts with backhoe .

Third day have quarry haul in and spread about 20 loads of # 53's with tri axils . And td25c grades it all in with the Minneapolis - Moline G 1000 and box blade .

Might run about 12 grand for that depending on how many new culverts needed .

See how easy that is .

 

[ericscher]

Yeah eric , at 80,000 for 2,000 feet of gravel road you won't have to worry about the job .:cool2

While I understand your reaction, I suspect you'd feel differently if you saw the road for yourself.



Communications company will hire some low lifer like me to come give them what they want . One day working with a D7 size dozer grading as needed.

Well, that's only wider than the road in SOME parts, so that's probably a good choice.



Second day install needed culverts with backhoe .

You're going to dig out the road, tear out a bunch of trees, remove and replace the culvert then backfill it, all in a single day with just a TLB? Cool!
But uhhh... What's your budget there? Because later on you mentioned a $12,000 price tag but you spec'd $10,000 worth of stone. (20 tons x 20 loads x $25 local price delivered and dumped)



Third day have quarry haul in and spread about 20 loads of # 53's with tri axils . And td25c grades it all in with the Minneapolis - Moline G 1000 and box blade .

Yeah, I'm sorry to have to disagree with you, but you're not getting multi-axle trucks TO this road, let alone UP it. You'd be using a bucket loader at first and after you get a solid base established, MAYBE a 4wd F450 with a dump bed.
Also, at local prices that's about $10,000.
And what were you planning on using for your wearing course? Because assuming you run in 10 tons per hundred feet of #4 or #57 as a wearing course, that's another 5 grand.



Might run about 12 grand for that depending on how many new culverts needed .

You sure you don't mean Swales? Because there's only one culvert area, but LOTS of incomplete swale on the uphill side of the road. Not only will you want to complete that, you'll need to fill it with rip-rap so that water rushing downhill can break on the rock and turn towards the bottom, instead of undercutting the road. That was actually 50% of my rock budget.


See how easy that is .

Uh, yeah... Sure.
You definitely made it sound very easy. No argument there.

With all due respect and NO animosity intended...
You also illustrated why I have a policy of never quoting a job I haven't laid eyeballs on.

And please keep in mind...
I could have rented a D95 Holland for two days for a grand, flattened and graded the road, charged them $5,000 and split.

And a few years from now someone would die on that road.


I haven't been responsible for any deaths since I left the Army and if I get my way I'll leave this world able to make the same claim.


As I said...
No disrespect intended and certainly no hard feelings.
I'm sure you and I would vary by some amount on doing the same work, but if you find yourself thinking that I'm WAY the heck out of the ballpark on something then there's at least a chance that I saw something you didn't.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

As always an interesting discussion and different ways of looking at things.

I have poked a few tracks up mountains for repeater stations and such and, at no time was the fact that sometime in the future could fall off that road a consideration . . . their problem not mine.

Like wise the tower owners wanted access for construction at least possible expense so it was a case of scramble up there, angle the blade and cut the sucker down, with maybe a few side drains and wooboys . . . no point in wear course and fancy construction.

Once the road is established it was a simple enough job to schedule a smaller dozer or grader to knock down the bushes and re-establish the track for occasional maintenance and upgrades.

That was then, these days I suppose the environmental problems of silt control and erosion are an issue and an inordinate amount of money must be spent on a track that possibly only gets used on an annual basis.

Since this thread started I have been told upgrades and maintenance on some of the towers is contracted out to an outfit with choppers . . . makes sense if we are talking eighty grand for two thousand feet of track . . . an R44 is not that expensive to run.

Cheers.