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Safety BS

Oxbow

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,220
Location
Idaho
I am not opposed to safety and reasonable measures to help situations and equipment become safer, but some of this stuff goes way to far, to the point where it causes an un-safe occurence. Example:

Our D6T - It has the seat sensor that prohibits movement of the tractor unless it detects weight on the seat. That in and of itself sounds reasonable, except if it detects no weight for a moment and then it is weighted, one has to set the parking brake, toggle the direction switch to neutral, release the parking brake switch, and toggle the direction switch before the machine will move. We do a fair bit of receiving articulated haul trucks with it, and often amongst trees or other obstructions, or sidehill locations, in which it is the dozer operators responsibility to ensure that the haul trucks can safely dump. We run two-way radios in the equipment and guide the trucks as needed. I find myself having to turn in the seat to see the circumstances and momentarily removing weight on the seat. The truck may be quite close to me. After telling the truck operator to dump I often need to move. Toggle the directional switch and go, except that if I lifted from the seat for a moment I now have to go through the whole procedure before I can move. In the event that the truck operator's radio has failed, channel selector got bumped, volume been turned down, etc. I sometimes need to move quickly out of the way. We have not had any accidents as of yet, but it could happen if I am not able to go through the whole procedure quickly enough, and usually I am not aware that I have de-weighted the seat and go to move before realizing that I tripped the sensor.

I have tried to unhook the sensor with the thought of installing a jump wire, but as soon as I un hook the wiring harness the almighty computer detects that it is unhooked and throws a fault code. I suppose a resistor could be added to a jump wire and it may work, but that is above my knowledge level.

Anyway, this is not a gripe against the manufacturer in particular, just an observation that the dumming down of society in general, often promoted by the good intentions of folks that have never set seat in a piece of equipment be it those who promote governmental regulations or just industry engineers, is in my opinion reaching the point of diminishing returns.
 

Birken Vogt

Charter Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2003
Messages
5,330
Location
Grass Valley, Ca
I hate the thought of what a plaintiff's attorney could do with *that* in the event of an accident...
Perhaps doing "that" might prevent and accident though.
That's what I have always said. No accident = nothing to litigate. Vs. following dumb procedures and having an accident because of them.
 

digger242j

Administrator
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
6,648
Location
Southwestern PA
Occupation
Self employed excavator
That's what I have always said. No accident = nothing to litigate. Vs. following dumb procedures and having an accident because of them.

I don't disagree, but I worry about being involved in somebody else's accident.

Do you think a lawyer isn't going to try and convince the jury that a machine with a safety system intentionally disabled doesn't equate to a disregard for safety in general, which equates to owning at least part of the blame? They're good at that sort of thing.

Half the stuff isn't actually about safety, but rather manufacturer's attempts to avoid liability lawsuits.

Again, I agree, for the reason stated above.
 

materthegreater

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2012
Messages
680
Location
VT
Depending on how complicated the circuitry is, you may be able to add a simple resistor-capacitor circuit to provide a delay. That way the seat sensor won't know you've gotten off the seat until you've been off for whatever time value you choose by selecting the proper resistor and capacitor values. As long as you sit back down before that time is up, the computer will think you've been on the seat the whole time.
 

Oxbow

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,220
Location
Idaho
Depending on how complicated the circuitry is, you may be able to add a simple resistor-capacitor circuit to provide a delay. That way the seat sensor won't know you've gotten off the seat until you've been off for whatever time value you choose by selecting the proper resistor and capacitor values. As long as you sit back down before that time is up, the computer will think you've been on the seat the whole time.
Unfortunately, I would need help to determine what resistor-capacitor is needed. Or I guess I could go to Radio Shack and get an assortment, but I'd probably screw something up knowing me!
 

pushbroom

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Messages
109
Location
Saskatchewan
Our tracked skid steer we changed the seat switch to a toggle switch. Get in it, hit the switch and ready to roll. Door switch and seatbelt switch still work as designed so if you leave the cab it will still lock everything out.
 

Tones

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2009
Messages
3,093
Location
Ubique
Occupation
Ex land clearing contractor, part-time retired
Going on about safety switches and dumb.
Years ago I owned and operated a small dedicated forestry mulcher. I was called on to do some clearing between a major highway and a service road. A new very efficient safety officer rocked to do a prestart safety inspection, defected it because it didn't have cut out switches on the outside of the machine. A robust discussion took place where I laid out my case for not fitting them and the fact there was a funa spotter catcher working ahead of me and if the switches were tripped I then had no control of falling trees which could cause injury or death to the said person. We ended up in the project managers office where he and the SO said it was the company protocols and that was that. So I relented but on 1 condition. The principal would indemnify me and my business from any loss or injury or any other damage that was caused by the activation of the switches in writing. The manager told told me to get working, he'd sort the rest out. The SO got fired.
Some times you have to stand on your digs and don't join stupid.
 

Mcrafty1

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2019
Messages
445
Location
Central Maine
Occupation
Earth work
"I have tried to unhook the sensor with the thought of installing a jump wire, but as soon as I un hook the wiring harness the almighty computer detects that it is unhooked and throws a fault code."

Have you tried actually installing the jumper wire and THEN clearing the code? It seem it would be no different then sitting back down in the seat and doing what ever it is that's done to reset the computer so the tractor can be operated? Just thinking out load here.
 

funwithfuel

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2017
Messages
5,608
Location
Will county Illinois
Occupation
Mechanic
I understand the frustration in seat switches. I also appreciate Tones concern for inadvertently tripping an external E-stop. In that situation, I don't know what a funa spotter is, or how that operation takes place. I guess I would try to operate so that no men were in uatms way. I also realize this is not always practical nor efficient.
I don't wanna come off as some safety nazi, but I do appreciate the safeguards engineered into the machine's. The manufacturers aren't happy about compromising their good name and reliability for some switches and devices that should have weeded out the Darwin award candidates long ago. But you have to keep in the back of your mind, every rule, device, lockout etc was thought up because someone was killed or seriously injured. Seat switches, for example. If an operator gets out of his machine and accidentally bumps a control on the way off/down or out, that person could be hurt badly. Dozens and rollers. When you throttled up and push or pull the travel lever, you're going without a continual input from you. So know you're in harms way and anyone else in its path. How you gonna mount a moving dozer to stop it? Or a roller for that matter? I'm not saying it's the only way, but I think it's easier to live with it than without. I never want to make 'that' phone call or get hauled into a courtroom for willfull negligence or worse involuntary manslaughter. Just a bit to think about.
 
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