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Replacing Brakes on a Cat 416

Pootermagavin

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Messages
8
Location
Gales Creek, OR
I bought a 1989 Cat 416 backhoe about a month ago and I love this machine. Good power and very easy to operate. I am big on maintnence so did the usual oil and filter, replace diff fluid and hydro tranny fluid with a cat TO2 equivelent fluid (pretty sure that is what it is supposed to take) The only problem with the machine is that when I get the brakes hot on hilly areas they start to make a loud growling noise. I got under tha machine and it looks like the brakes are adjusted up as far as they will go leading me to believe that the friction materials are in need of replacement. I am a Master Certified ASE Heavy Duty Truck mechanic but have pretty much no experiance working on a drivetrain such as this one with wet brakes. Can anyone tell me how difficult of a job this might be and how much it would cost. I will only need to run the machine for another 250-300hours so I would like to keep the cost down. Any help is greatly appreciated.
 

Lee-online

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
1,023
Location
In a van, down by the river
This is a pretty basic job. Remove the rear axle from the machine, stand in one of the removed wheels and then unbolt the the other side and lift off from the diff. Stand this in the other wheel. Remove the diff section. both brakes are now accessible and it is pretty simple to disassemble the disc's and linkage (or piston on newer machines)

Make sure you us the anti chatter additive when you change the rear axle oil.

These axles are ford new holland so parts are available at a few different places.
 

DGODGR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
1,064
Location
S/W CO
I have done this 2x on my 416C. All Cat and Ford/New Holland brakes will chatter this way especially if you don't have the right oil. I used to use an "equivalent" oil (Chevron) but I had to also add a friction modifier (same if you use Ford/NH oil, at least back then), as was mentioned in the last post. If you don't the brakes make a lot of noise. If you run Cat TDTO you don't need this additive. Just because the brakes are noisy does not mean that they are worn out. I'm not familiar enough with the older Series II backhoes to know if they incorporate the same brake system as my 416C. I suspect that they are the same. If they are hydraulically activated (as are the ones on the 416C) than you will be losing brake fluid if the brakes are worn out. This is because the piston is traveling so far that it goes beyond the seals and allows the brake fluid to escape into the rear diff. If you are not losing brake fluid than I would not be inclined to think that they are worn out.
If you decide that you must replace the brake linings than you must remove the rear axle from the machine (as the last post stated). When I did it, I did not stand the axle on end. I worked on one side at a time, with the axle on the floor. On end can be done (and is the way explained in the manual, though in a stand and not in the wheel) but will require a hoist, or some other way to lift something very heavy, in your shop. The hardest part (for me) was trying to put the piston back together after replacing the linings. It is difficult to do (at least the first time I did it) without tearing the o-rings. Make sure you stretch them really good before attempting to reassemble the piston. I also recommend having a few spares on hand (I went through six before I got the tip I just gave you). You should also coat them with assembly lube. After you have put one side back together there is only one way to check if you have a good seal in the piston. You must put whatever side you are working on back onto the center diff. section. Do not put all the bolts in. Just snug it up with a couple. Make sure the fill plug (of the center section) is out. Put the little round brake manifold (not sure what else to call it) back on the side you just snugged up (it goes on top of the axle and it should have been removed before you took that axle off of the center section). This is the part that the brake line connects to and there is also a bleed valve on it. You are putting it there to seal off that side. Take air pressure (I used the "blow nozzle",the one with the pointed rubber tip, with the rubber tip forcefully held against the brake oil port) and force it into the brake. If you don't hear air escaping into the center section, than your seals are good. You should hear the brakes "clunk" lightly as they are forced together. If you do hear the air escaping, into the ceneter section, than it's time to do that side over again (this is when the spare o-rings come in handy) because one of the o-rings is cut. I should also mention that I used a floor jack (two actually) to pull the rear axle from the backhoe. Be careful if you do this (a transmission jack would probably be better). After I was done with both sides (the first time) the axle fell off of the jack when I was putting the axle back in. It broke the parking brake rotor (on the input shaft). That cost me a day (waiting for the part to arrive) and $500. Even though that happened I was still way ahead when compared to having Cat do the work. Parts cost about $1300 (if I remember correctly), but Cat said they wanted $3500-$4000 to do that job. The second time I did the job in about nine hours without any problems. It is very helpfull to have the service manual in hand (for me at least). Not to bad for a "backyard" mechanic.
 

Lee-online

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
1,023
Location
In a van, down by the river
The older 416 has mechanical brakes so no need to worry about cutting the piston seals.

BTW when you do the piston seals use the updated seal. it has a round profile not square. The new seal is not listed in parts but is listed in a service letter. it is easier to assemble and lets the piston return and cuts down on brake drag.
 

DGODGR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
1,064
Location
S/W CO
The older 416 has mechanical brakes so no need to worry about cutting the piston seals.

BTW when you do the piston seals use the updated seal. it has a round profile not square. The new seal is not listed in parts but is listed in a service letter. it is easier to assemble and lets the piston return and cuts down on brake drag.

Thanks for the tip. It was much easier to get them together the second time. I was thinking that it was because of the stretching of the o-ring. Maybe they were the o-rings that you are talking about. I don't recall if they were square or rounded. I'll try to remember that if I have to do them again. I doubt I will as I'm getting about 5,500 hours between brake jobs. I wonder if that machine will make it to 17,000 hours. It's not the flag ship anymore and I have other machines that do the lions share of the work now. At 12k hours it still works great, but I do occasionally wonder how long until something will need replacement and wether or not it will be worth paying to repair.
 

Pootermagavin

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Messages
8
Location
Gales Creek, OR
And I know this I should have asked this before but I am running a Cat TO2equivilent fluid (Napa tractor fluid) in the tranny and rear diff. Is this the correct fluid? A friend of mine that is an equipmet tech said it should be fine. I just orderd a bottle of Cat anti brake chatter additive and want to make sure I am not wasting my money putting it in with the wrong fluid in the rear. Again thanks for taking the time to help me out.
 

willie59

Administrator
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
13,415
Location
Knoxville TN
Occupation
Service Manager
TO-2 is an old Cat spec, it has been replaced by TO-4. The rear axle on your machine should be using TDTO oil SAE 10W. Alternate oils of other brands could be causing your brake chatter. I would consider changing the oil to TDTO before breaking the axles down, you may find that your brakes are ok.
 

55cans

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
17
Location
Alberta
I have done this 2x on my 416C. All Cat and Ford/New Holland brakes will chatter this way especially if you don't have the right oil. I used to use an "equivalent" oil (Chevron) but I had to also add a friction modifier (same if you use Ford/NH oil, at least back then), as was mentioned in the last post. If you don't the brakes make a lot of noise. If you run Cat TDTO you don't need this additive. Just because the brakes are noisy does not mean that they are worn out. I'm not familiar enough with the older Series II backhoes to know if they incorporate the same brake system as my 416C. I suspect that they are the same. If they are hydraulically activated (as are the ones on the 416C) than you will be losing brake fluid if the brakes are worn out. This is because the piston is traveling so far that it goes beyond the seals and allows the brake fluid to escape into the rear diff. If you are not losing brake fluid than I would not be inclined to think that they are worn out.
If you decide that you must replace the brake linings than you must remove the rear axle from the machine (as the last post stated). When I did it, I did not stand the axle on end. I worked on one side at a time, with the axle on the floor. On end can be done (and is the way explained in the manual, though in a stand and not in the wheel) but will require a hoist, or some other way to lift something very heavy, in your shop. The hardest part (for me) was trying to put the piston back together after replacing the linings. It is difficult to do (at least the first time I did it) without tearing the o-rings. Make sure you stretch them really good before attempting to reassemble the piston. I also recommend having a few spares on hand (I went through six before I got the tip I just gave you). You should also coat them with assembly lube. After you have put one side back together there is only one way to check if you have a good seal in the piston. You must put whatever side you are working on back onto the center diff. section. Do not put all the bolts in. Just snug it up with a couple. Make sure the fill plug (of the center section) is out. Put the little round brake manifold (not sure what else to call it) back on the side you just snugged up (it goes on top of the axle and it should have been removed before you took that axle off of the center section). This is the part that the brake line connects to and there is also a bleed valve on it. You are putting it there to seal off that side. Take air pressure (I used the "blow nozzle",the one with the pointed rubber tip, with the rubber tip forcefully held against the brake oil port) and force it into the brake. If you don't hear air escaping into the center section, than your seals are good. You should hear the brakes "clunk" lightly as they are forced together. If you do hear the air escaping, into the ceneter section, than it's time to do that side over again (this is when the spare o-rings come in handy) because one of the o-rings is cut. I should also mention that I used a floor jack (two actually) to pull the rear axle from the backhoe. Be careful if you do this (a transmission jack would probably be better). After I was done with both sides (the first time) the axle fell off of the jack when I was putting the axle back in. It broke the parking brake rotor (on the input shaft). That cost me a day (waiting for the part to arrive) and $500. Even though that happened I was still way ahead when compared to having Cat do the work. Parts cost about $1300 (if I remember correctly), but Cat said they wanted $3500-$4000 to do that job. The second time I did the job in about nine hours without any problems. It is very helpfull to have the service manual in hand (for me at least). Not to bad for a "backyard" mechanic.

I know this thread is old, have to do my 416C brakes and was wondering if you changed friction discs only or if you bought the steels too? Did you tackle the hub seal, or did you go that far into the axle? Trying to get an idea of what your $1,300 in parts included. Thank you.
 

DGODGR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
1,064
Location
S/W CO
I know this thread is old, have to do my 416C brakes and was wondering if you changed friction discs only or if you bought the steels too? Did you tackle the hub seal, or did you go that far into the axle? Trying to get an idea of what your $1,300 in parts included. Thank you.

Brake linings (friction discs only), seals (o-rings), and oil. I'm not familiar with the "hub seal". I'll assume that would be the outer-most seal (near the wheel). On my machine those seals are the originals.
 

55cans

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
17
Location
Alberta
Brake linings (friction discs only), seals (o-rings), and oil. I'm not familiar with the "hub seal". I'll assume that would be the outer-most seal (near the wheel). On my machine those seals are the originals.

Hi. Thanks for your reply. Wow, not much for $1,300.00.



Did you have to change the shim(s) #43 in the photo?

Which is the O-Ring you had problems with and bought extras, #50 or #52 in the photo?
 
Last edited:

DGODGR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
1,064
Location
S/W CO
I did not change any of the shims. I don't remember which of the o-rings actually got cut. Both engage at the same time (when putting the piston back together) so I would recommend that you have extras of both on-hand.
Be careful with the differential lock actuator. I remember having difficulty removing it because I did not want to pull out the seat and remove the floor pan for access. Good luck.
 

55cans

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
17
Location
Alberta
I did not change any of the shims. I don't remember which of the o-rings actually got cut. Both engage at the same time (when putting the piston back together) so I would recommend that you have extras of both on-hand.
Be careful with the differential lock actuator. I remember having difficulty removing it because I did not want to pull out the seat and remove the floor pan for access. Good luck.

Okay, thanks very much.
 

Tractor Tech

New Member
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
3
Location
United States
Great advice from DGODGR on the brake seals. Very easy to cut, but you know it before you pressure test, but definitely verify with a pressure test.

Lee-online, you say there is a round oring that Cat offers, but NH doesn't. Do you know the part number because i had the Cat parts guy look up a 416C assembly without a S/N, but he showed no bulletin and sold the same square shouldered oring.

I just want to add that it is a good time when you have the axle broken down that far, replace the axle seals. Once you remove the trumpet housing, use a bearing puller to remove the bearing and seal. Inspect the bearing. If good, install a new seal. The seal is cassette type, so don't drive with a punch or anything. It should slide down the axle to the flange. Heat the bearing and drop in place. Let it cool. Install the trumpet housing, carefully lining up the housing end over the seal and let the weight of the housing slide over the seal.
At this point, check the bearing preload and adjust the shim as needed.
 

55cans

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
17
Location
Alberta
Yes, good info for sure.

I just bought a set of brake discs, steel plates, housing and brake o-rings and wheel seals and was about $1500 CDN. Doubled up on the o-rings for the brake piston.

All parts were the same as listed on Cat's part site, except the brake discs which have been changed to a newer part 2304017.

Axle is out, going to install parts tomorrow, will update on how it went.
 

DGODGR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
1,064
Location
S/W CO
If I remember correctly, the brake linings (the different part number) were updated to include Kevlar. Due to this update a different oil is used in the rear diff. (no longer MTO) which doesn't include the "friction modifier" to keep the brake chatter down.
 

55cans

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
17
Location
Alberta
Looks like I need to change the outboard passenger bearing too, so may as well do the other side too. Anyone have a Timken or SKF cross reference for the cat bearing 030-1957 and cup 6Y-7652? See if I can get one locally tomorrow or have to wait a day on the cat part.
 

55cans

Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
17
Location
Alberta
Looks like I need to change the outboard passenger bearing too, so may as well do the other side too. Anyone have a Timken or SKF cross reference for the cat bearing 030-1957 and cup 6Y-7652? See if I can get one locally tomorrow or have to wait a day on the cat part.

No cross reference found, so I got the Cat parts. Wasn't too bad about $150 total for both cups and both bearings.

The old friction discs still looked okay, but the appear like a ceramic style. The new ones look like a kevlar style and don't seem as robust. The ceramics had worn into the steels a bit. The steels definitely needed to be replaced.

I got around the square o-ring cutting problem by using a press to push the brake piston back into its bore. It helps to ensure the alignment is perfect and equal pressure is applied right around the entire o-ring circumference. It also helps to make sure the piston is fully pushed into the bore when stacking the friction discs and seals. If its out a bit, the last friction disc may not engage fully on the axle shaft splines.

Couple of o-rings I didn't buy initially, but needed to get - these aren't obvious on the parts list. Are the two tiny ones that seal the brake fluid block to the brake piston housing and the one that seals the brake fluid block to the axle housing. These get compressed, heated and age. They don't spring back to their circular cross section when removed.
 
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