Quickest and easiest way to strip top soil

[oceanobob]

The dozer's cutting edge has to be replacing the lost dirt slipping off the blade while drifting .... so I can see how the slot helps....but why wouldn't a crawler loader outperform the similar sized dozer in all aspects: qty of material, fuel, track wear. Loader fills the blade with soil and skim it along the grade while drifting a bit more....

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . As I often do I suppose I have taken this thread off on a tangent . . . the original poster asked about stripping topsoil and we are now discussing elements of production dozing.

We also have ventured into the area of machine comparisons when dozerman400 mentioned he was talking track loaders with a bucket and not a conventional blade.

I have never struck conditions as mentioned by JimBruce42 and Oxbow but, here again, it comes down to experience, a good thoughtful operator adapts to the situation.

This discussion though has resulted in the following profound statement from Oxbow which I think should not go unremarked . . . .

"Any time I see someone boiling material over the blade for long stretches I realize that they have yet too learn some of the finer points of production dozing".

I have been hammering this point for over fifty years. In my experience very few operators have grasped the basic principle of pushing slots and the concept of loading the blade and pushing on the hard ground . . . not always possible it seems with some of the soil types in the U.S. but in Australia and P.N.G. I have never found conditions where I couldn't dig and drift.

With due respect to the O/P I won't go into it here but if any one wants to start a production dozing thread it might be interesting to hear some views.

To any of the folks who have PM'd me . . . I have issues with my computer and can't seem to reply.

Cheers.

 

[td25c]

Dealing with top soil

The first thing I do on bigger jobs is mow it down short with a bushhog then disc up the ground with a farm tractor. This helps break up the sod & grass allowing it to mix in the dirt better and spread real nice at the end of the job.Then lay out the job & decide if you want one big pile or multiple smaller top soil piles around the job site. Dont push the piles any further than you have to but make sure they are out of the way for operations. My favorite method is discing with the Moline & hauling with the Wabco.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Good thinking, you got it made there td25c.

Never heard of the discing caper but it would make for a sweet operation loading out and spreading later . . . it's a bit late for me at this stage but a bloke never stops learning on this site.

Cheers.

 

[buckfever]

TD when you strip topsoil in what was once a wooded area do you still disc it under? What size disc and machine do you use to pull with? Do you do this to save time or to make the topsoil a better product? I've never seen this done that way before but if it makes things go faster it might be something we should look into.

 

[td25c]

Yeah Scrub.... I feel the same way. Always interesting to see different methods & techniques used in the heavy equipment world. I enjoy reading your stories clearing land & moving dirt in the remote outback.


buckfever, I might disk over the once wooded area before stripping although its not as important as if it was a crop field with corn stalks, soybean vines, or fescue grass. I do it mostly to break up the sod or crop residue on top so it all mixes in to the top dirt. But it also cuts the first 4 to 5 inches of ground loose so I suppose in a way it might help production when time comes to blade it off. As for the tractor & disk we use some of the latest modern equipment. G1000 Moline & Kewanee disk.

 

[wilko]

Seems to me that the discing would make for a good depth gauge. If you want to peel off 6 inches just disc down accordingly and blade off whatever is loose. Nice old Moline. I do like tractors from that era.

 

[td25c]

Good point wilko . I also like farm tractors from that time .

 

[vapor300]

I agree with scrub and the other guys, slot dozing is the best way to push dirt even with a track loader! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDFFFm2U-OA

 

[dozerman400]

jazzyjeffer,

If you look at the video vapor300 put up, the operator is 1) backing up to far, he goes forever before his bucket is full. 2) if he would hit the center of the windrows his bucket would fill sooner with less effort. 3) He goes to far at the end of the push, when your bucket is emptying out in the fill area, just stop, dump and back up for more and get the pile maybe the next time through.( I did see the operator in the video do this once).

I don't think if you were getting a bucket full out of a stockpile (to say load a truck), you would keep going to the same spot over and over, you find the weakest part of the pile and there you will get your bucket full the fastest. In my opinion it's the same concept.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Thanks for the video vapour300, but while the operator is to some extent working in a slot he is not "slot dozing" as defined by the term

As I have posted before I really do have strong views on this and have probably taken the concept a little further than described in the text books. If anyone is interested I can start a discussion over on the dozer thread.

I am not trying to be a smart ass but in my experience most dozer operators do not understand the concept . . . if they agree with it and follow the basic principles when they do understand it is a different thing again.

Once shown it is very easy to get lax and slide back into bad habits of pushing out rills, side cutting, "getting a good boil going in front of the blade" and all the other sloppy technique and B/S one sees on job sites.

As I have posted wayback when discussing pushing up ring-tanks the best way to stay focussed is for owner to be paid on weekly cross-sections . . . it clarifies the mind when a D7 using the optimum technique is out producing a D8 which is not.

Cheers.

 

[vapor300]

I agree with you slot dozing is the most productive way to push. If you constantley taking the windrows you are always losing dirt creating new windrows where as a slot the dirt stays infront of you in the slot.

Say you have a D10 and your pushing 150ft you will start your cut right at the cut fill line starting your cut damn near vertical (the steeper it is the easier it is for the machine to cut) you get a quick blade full and push it 50ft, back up again to your cut fill line grab you another blade full and push it 100ft doubling what you would push, back up one more time grab you a blade full and this time you take 3 blades of dirt the full 150ft. You cannot possible take that much dirt when you take your windrow every time since the the slots keep the dirt infront of the dozer in the SLOT. People that have never really been on a production push dont know the correct way to do this. And you will see a huge increase if the dozer has dual blade cylinders with the ability to carry dirt.

I dont know about that vid didnt really watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk5K6_IAREY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlW3ALRyk_M

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . vapor300. You are pretty much on the money. The key to it all is having the material conditioned so the blade will penetrate to the full depth of the rip in one pass.

The material does not roll and the grousers are getting maximum traction on the next floor down. On a D10 I would imagine you would be taking out three or four feet of depth every pass.

The steeper you can get that start of cut slope with out having to teeter totter backing up the better. Some material will "flow", you can shift up to second and the machine will start to boogie pushing a whole "train" of dirt . . . is that what you find?

Cheers.

 

[Oxbow]

As Scrub has said, this should be a thread of it's own, however; I have had little experience with track loaders - they just aren't used around here much. The comparison between a track loader and dozer regarding stripping topsoil is, well, no comparison really in my mind.

Take a 973 at about 60,000 lbs. versus a D7R at about the same. The 973 has about a 4 cy bucket heaped according to the Cat performance handbook, and a D7R with a SU dozer has about a 9 cy capacity. I don't belive that the 973 has an advantage unless it is a pick and carry for long distances.

Again, I have almost zero experience with a track loader, so I may be completely wrong.

In watching the video of the D11, I would think that that much track slippage would be grounds for dismissal. Get a blade full, quit digging, grab second and go seems to me to be much more efficient and much easier on the undercarriage then grinding your way throughout. I have never had the privilege of operating an 11 either, so again I may be completely wrong.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Well there you go. Flapping my jaw again. I cannot imagine dirt tractors not being equipped with rippers as the D8's in the second clip.

That is pretty nasty material and I imagine rippers would just drag through it to no real effect never seen stuff like that . . . it doesn't look like it would be hard to get the blade to bite. (he grins)

It looks like the boys are doing okay and it is a different kettle of fish completely to cutting out floors.

As Oxbow mentions we have hi-jacked this thread completely and I'll start a production dozing thread tonight.

Cheers.

 

[alco]

I agree and disagree with some points being made.

In topsoil, it will depend on the goal behind stripping the topsoil. Typically, the stripping I have done was not allowed to have contamination from the subsoil, and with thin topsoil layers, that dictates starting at the back of the cut, so you can bed over the soil and not contaminate it as you go, while still cutting to the subsoil layer. If you had boatloads of soil to strip, I can see starting at the front of the cut, and working back until you have the majority of the material carved away, then cleaning up from the back.

Now, on the production dozing side of things, I agree that in most cases, starting at the front and working back is the way to go. However, I can say with all certainty, that it is not the way to go in every case. Nor is cutting only until the blade is full, and then carrying the material the best choice in all situations. We have an application where we have our dozers cut down for our shovels, and in that case, you need to evenly cut the whole work area, or you will screw yourself in very short order. You also can't take full advantage of slot dozing and it's benefits. You can however use a modified version, and it works quite well, but once again, it requires cutting over the length of the cut evenly.

The application I speak of is a unique one, but the reason I mention it, is to show you can't paint every situation with the same brush, and say that slot dozing is always the most efficient. Or that it's always the most efficient to start at the front of your cut. Or for that matter, to say that you shouldn't ever cut the whole length of your push, or you don't know what you're doing. Like was mentioned earlier in this thread, you have to adapt to the conditions to find the best way to push.......and not every situation is the same.

 

[vapor300]

The video with the 8T's i was running one. That material was HARD to cut we had to corner blade it a little just so the blades could penatrate. Both of those dozers were bought for that job to assist in knocking down the fill and finishing slopes thats why they had no rippers, the one on the left actually had wider pads just for the 2:1 slopes on that job.

I have been doing some production pushing this summer with a 10R and its a good machine but you cant push near as much in 2nd as you can in first so i usually have to push in 1st until i get towards the end of my fill. But it might actually move more dirt if i carried less dirt and pushed in 2nd??? Havent really tried it, i just know when the boss comes around and you got a big blade full hes smiling. I was actually pretty surprised at how much a D10 could push in a day.

But your right there is no one right way to do everything.

 

[dozerman400]

Right on Alco!

 

[Construct'O]

That's the way i see it for my operation here.Works for me.Thanks for the reply

I agree and disagree with some points being made.

In topsoil, it will depend on the goal behind stripping the topsoil. Typically, the stripping I have done was not allowed to have contamination from the subsoil, and with thin topsoil layers, that dictates starting at the back of the cut, so you can bed over the soil and not contaminate it as you go, while still cutting to the subsoil layer. If you had boatloads of soil to strip, I can see starting at the front of the cut, and working back until you have the majority of the material carved away, then cleaning up from the back.

Now, on the production dozing side of things, I agree that in most cases, starting at the front and working back is the way to go. However, I can say with all certainty, that it is not the way to go in every case. Nor is cutting only until the blade is full, and then carrying the material the best choice in all situations. We have an application where we have our dozers cut down for our shovels, and in that case, you need to evenly cut the whole work area, or you will screw yourself in very short order. You also can't take full advantage of slot dozing and it's benefits. You can however use a modified version, and it works quite well, but once again, it requires cutting over the length of the cut evenly.

The application I speak of is a unique one, but the reason I mention it, is to show you can't paint every situation with the same brush, and say that slot dozing is always the most efficient. Or that it's always the most efficient to start at the front of your cut. Or for that matter, to say that you shouldn't ever cut the whole length of your push, or you don't know what you're doing. Like was mentioned earlier in this thread, you have to adapt to the conditions to find the best way to push.......and not every situation is the same.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Well haven't we gone around the subject.

I think good points made by all, particularly by alco. I don't quite understand the issue of cutting down for shovels but starting at the back to minimise contamination of top-soil makes perfect common sense.

I repeat a comment I made early in the thread . . . . . .

You can't always do it due to terrain and circumstance but it has been proven time again that in bulk pushing the more you deviate from that basic premise the more inefficient you get.

My problem has always been that on a conventional bulk dirt job such as a mud-tank, pond, levee or a road cut the majority of dozer hands don't know how to set the job up and push to best advantage . . . and in many cases they and get pi$$ed off and obstoperous when gently told.

Cheers