New Orleans Levee rebuilds

[JASONM]

Like some have already interjected, w/o a set of plans and specs, you really don't know the intent of this project; and I personally have not been to this exact location but can say, from experience, what I think is happening.
Most levee systems exist because surrounding topography is low; therefore the need for a levee. If the adjacent topo would be higher, no levee need exist.
Most levee systems incorporate seepage berms on either side, and sometimes both protected and unprotected side of the levee. These "berms" are built only to serve as weight. This weight disallows the development of what hydraulic engineers describe as a "flow net"...... actually it is the movement of water, not unlike a river, that flows under the levee reach. Levees typically fail from the bottom, not the top, contrary to popular belief. This is why the sand fill is acceptable as fill... the Corps is only trying to add WEIGHT. This WEIGHT makes the dreaded flow net very difficult to perpetuate.
The filter cloth (geotextile fabric) is placed to help bridge over the underlying unsuitable material, mostly to facilitate fill placement.
Good levee construction need not consist of 100% impermeable material. The Corps will sometimes zone certain borrow material for placement. Typically, more permeable materials (sands and silts) will be placed on the Landside, aka the Protected Side, and the more impermeable materials be zoned for use on the Riverside, aka Unprotected Side. Most of the time, impermeable materials are preferred, especially to encapsulate the earthen structure............. but the sad reality is, that it's not economically feasible to use clay materials everywhere. Clay is a commodity in New Orleans; and when I say commodity, I mean it. Good, high plasticity indexed clays are worth sometimes as much as $30/ CY, delivered, in place. The cost breakdown is typically like this: $10/ Cy just to purchase the material, pure slop, by the way. then $12-$15/ Cy just for transportation, then about $10/ Cy to process (dry the slop out) and install in lifts, compact, and dress. All said, it's cost is about $30/ Cy!!!!!.............
By comparison, the taxpayer can save $5/ Cy by using sands in lieu of clays. And if the purpose is to simply add weight, then sand is a good alternative to clays. BTW: Sand can be bought for $5/ Cy.

Hope this helps some of you. I know that all that money being spent here in South La. is a sore spot for the taxpayers... but there are more interests than meet the eye.

 

[DPete]

With all the damage and the cost of repairing the damage and more problems inevitable am I the only one that wonders why the city was built there in the first place? I mean you could have the port but build town on higher ground. Never liked a house in a hole

 

[milling_drum]

A special thank you to Jason for the patient, well worded synopsis of what is being done here.

This picture is one of the better dozer operators doing some spreading. Watching the spread I noticed he was not using the Topcon GPS system at all.

We are using Three different pits to haul sand, two are small local pits in Mississipi. The truck traffic on I-10 is heavy. There are accidents every few days that involve a truck. DOT have a set of scales on I-10 about a mile north of the Newly built Twin Span Bridge which see every sand hauling truck mutiple times a day. The clay pit is directly across from the scales just off the service rd.

 

[Buckethead]

Like some have already interjected, w/o a set of plans and specs, you really don't know the intent of this project;

I agree. We certainly can't know the designer's intent from just looking at some pics. And without being there there is no way to know from a few pics whether it's being built to specs.

 

[CM1995]

Watching the spread I noticed he was not using the Topcon GPS system at all.

With a deep fill depth there is no reason to run GPS. On a deep fill, it's all about production - getting the material down, rough graded, compacted and ready for the next lift. You don't get paid any more for a level fill lift, -6' FG. The only reason to grade a fill lift is if rain is expected and you need it to drain.

 

[JASON M]

With all the damage and the cost of repairing the damage and more problems inevitable am I the only one that wonders why the city was built there in the first place? I mean you could have the port but build town on higher ground. Never liked a house in a hole

DPete, I agree with you to a large degree. Not unlike the evolution of all other things, the development of New Orleans was evolution; not necessarily planned. It was an important port that sparked the growth of the United States. Its location as a port was/ still is important for the welfare of the country's economy. And such, a large port was a haven for employment years ago. And with employment comes population. Much of the rebuilding dollars could be described as "the price of domestic tranquility"
But anyway, I feel as you do, and like lots of folks do, from other reaches of the U.S.......... if it were me I would have abandoned that hole; would have left the port facility in, included a large Naval Base and that be it.

That said, consider our highway system. Its origins were crooked, dirt trails developed from settlers driving wagons; They took the paths of least resistance, probably not much planning and thought for the future. Then years later, this dirt path gets paved with gravel, then years later, asphalt or concrete. It is evolution. I think that the development of New Orleans is no different.

But anyway, I'm conservative and vote Republican. My Grandfather was the first Repulican mayor in the state of Louisiana! I hate give-away programs and hence, have larger thorns in my side about Federal tax dollars used in the rebuilding and protection of our nasty, stink hole.ointhead

 

[stock]

Thanks for the explanation Jason not much of that type of work going on here these day .

 

[milling_drum]

Orchard, They have simple sill fences driven that they run the geofabric out too off the levee. The only stone out there is crushed concrete they use on the haul roads. I

I'm a little concerned that the locals would sub this out to a contractor that has limited experience here. The GC, Phillips & Jordan are a fairly large US/International Contractor. I'm sure they do good work in certain areas, but this ones a little off the map for them.

We get sand from three different local pits. I think a price war is going to heat up because just yesturday Lafarge are supplying now. The other two pits are local property owners with mining permits. That ones an easy win.

It rained today, We won't run for 2 days or better now. made $30 today

 

[Buckethead]

With a deep fill depth there is no reason to run GPS. On a deep fill, it's all about production - getting the material down, rough graded, compacted and ready for the next lift. You don't get paid any more for a level fill lift, -6' FG. The only reason to grade a fill lift is if rain is expected and you need it to drain.

That's right. I have seen quite a few surveyors when you have a deep fill, put stakes every 25 feet inside the fill before the first lift. Why? :Banghead

 

[GGDOZERINC]

Like some have already interjected, w/o a set of plans and specs, you really don't know the intent of this project; and I personally have not been to this exact location but can say, from experience, what I think is happening.
Most levee systems exist because surrounding topography is low; therefore the need for a levee. If the adjacent topo would be higher, no levee need exist.
Most levee systems incorporate seepage berms on either side, and sometimes both protected and unprotected side of the levee. These "berms" are built only to serve as weight. This weight disallows the development of what hydraulic engineers describe as a "flow net"...... actually it is the movement of water, not unlike a river, that flows under the levee reach. Levees typically fail from the bottom, not the top, contrary to popular belief. This is why the sand fill is acceptable as fill... the Corps is only trying to add WEIGHT. This WEIGHT makes the dreaded flow net very difficult to perpetuate.
The filter cloth (geotextile fabric) is placed to help bridge over the underlying unsuitable material, mostly to facilitate fill placement.
Good levee construction need not consist of 100% impermeable material. The Corps will sometimes zone certain borrow material for placement. Typically, more permeable materials (sands and silts) will be placed on the Landside, aka the Protected Side, and the more impermeable materials be zoned for use on the Riverside, aka Unprotected Side. Most of the time, impermeable materials are preferred, especially to encapsulate the earthen structure............. but the sad reality is, that it's not economically feasible to use clay materials everywhere. Clay is a commodity in New Orleans; and when I say commodity, I mean it. Good, high plasticity indexed clays are worth sometimes as much as $30/ CY, delivered, in place. The cost breakdown is typically like this: $10/ Cy just to purchase the material, pure slop, by the way. then $12-$15/ Cy just for transportation, then about $10/ Cy to process (dry the slop out) and install in lifts, compact, and dress. All said, it's cost is about $30/ Cy!!!!!.............
By comparison, the taxpayer can save $5/ Cy by using sands in lieu of clays. And if the purpose is to simply add weight, then sand is a good alternative to clays. BTW: Sand can be bought for $5/ Cy.

Hope this helps some of you. I know that all that money being spent here in South La. is a sore spot for the taxpayers... but there are more interests than meet the eye.

Couldn`t have said it better myself.... And local contractors did bid on this job but every bid was destroyed by this company. I know of a few local trucks that started to work on this project and stoped after a few days because they would only clear $175 after running a truck 14 hours. I dont understand how so many trucks can come over here and work for half the price local trucks can plus have the cost of living and working out of town. I would be willing to bet that when this project is complete everyone will go home without making any money out of town trucks and the contractor. Just my opinion.

 

[t_dirt]

That looks like a Trimble GPS not Topcon, not a big deal.

 

[Orchard Ex]

With all the damage and the cost of repairing the damage and more problems inevitable am I the only one that wonders why the city was built there in the first place?

Lol, I wonder the same thing every time I see a story about your neighbors in California rebuilding after an earthquake/wildfire/mudslide or see flooded houses next to (any big river) being rebuilt in the same spot. But who am I to judge when I'm living in a hurricane prone area? I'd probably rebuild here too.:beatsme

 

[milling_drum]

Theres some song with a line in it that goes "New Orleans is sinking baby"...Well I didn't much believe an entire city could be sinking ... but it is.

On that haul road we use that is on the outer side of the levee, they have swamp pads for the trucks to run over from dump locations begining to end. On the curve where the mainline swamp pads are placed they put extra pads set wide because of the longer trucks needing the extra room.

The mainline set of pads is sunk down over 18 inches, possibly as much as two foot, when they originally set the pads they were all level. The outer pads they set to accomodate the wide turning trucks are pretty torn up now and that corner has to be taken with a little extra care because if you come off the pads with more than just your front tire, you are stuck. And being stuck there would **** everybody off because its almost dead center of where they are working on the job.

Yesturday in the rain the haul road became impassable in less than an hour. they had over 25 trucks sitting on it during the downpour. I got on the CB and reminded the lead truck that the longer we sat there the better the chances we might get stuck. He told me the safety man told him to stop. I screamed back that they can catch us at the end on high ground if they want us so bad and send us around. He finally gets moving, the pads are heaving in the muck already started by all the water. Lucky we make it out and theres no one around to tell us what to do with the load they already paid for....so we leave.

The rain slows down and they call saying to come back with the load. Go back down and get stuck 50 yards after crossing over the top of the levee approaching the haul road. Took 2 hours to dump one load on that one.

 

[JASON M]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......... the romance of working in New Orleans. There's more where that came from.

 

[milling_drum]

Yep there sure is Mr Jason, I wouldn't want to know what some of what you have been through down here with this lovely swamp

The haul road was once level. Obviously its not now and they aren't going to fix it anytime soon because they have enough to tend too as it is.

 

[stinkycat]

Levees

My Dad worked on the levee system in the 1920's and 1930's after the great flood that happened on Mississippi River from Memphis to New Orleans

 

[milling_drum]

The dozers were at it hot and heavy here.....trying to keep up with the amount of trucks is a challenge. They do pretty good sometimes...

I have noticed at times they are using the Trimble GPS to fine grade. In a Conversation with a coupla them operators today they told me its a 2 ft lift in total....18 inches first (no compaction) and then the other 6 inches. Army Corps ride them pretty hard too.

 

[dieseldave]

Army Corps ride them pretty hard too.

That sounds familiar lol. I've run a dozer on Corps contract work for the past 10 years, and they can be tough. They explained it to me right from the start that "there's the right way, the wrong way, and the Corps way. You're gonna do it the Corps way."

 

[stock]

They explained it to me right from the start that "there's the right way, the wrong way, and the Corps way. You're gonna do it the Corps way."

The head of an earthworks company over here explained it to me the exact same way...go figure.....used it myself on occasion....

 

[245dlc]

Like some have already interjected, w/o a set of plans and specs, you really don't know the intent of this project; and I personally have not been to this exact location but can say, from experience, what I think is happening.
Most levee systems exist because surrounding topography is low; therefore the need for a levee. If the adjacent topo would be higher, no levee need exist.
Most levee systems incorporate seepage berms on either side, and sometimes both protected and unprotected side of the levee. These "berms" are built only to serve as weight. This weight disallows the development of what hydraulic engineers describe as a "flow net"...... actually it is the movement of water, not unlike a river, that flows under the levee reach. Levees typically fail from the bottom, not the top, contrary to popular belief. This is why the sand fill is acceptable as fill... the Corps is only trying to add WEIGHT. This WEIGHT makes the dreaded flow net very difficult to perpetuate.
The filter cloth (geotextile fabric) is placed to help bridge over the underlying unsuitable material, mostly to facilitate fill placement.
Good levee construction need not consist of 100% impermeable material. The Corps will sometimes zone certain borrow material for placement. Typically, more permeable materials (sands and silts) will be placed on the Landside, aka the Protected Side, and the more impermeable materials be zoned for use on the Riverside, aka Unprotected Side. Most of the time, impermeable materials are preferred, especially to encapsulate the earthen structure............. but the sad reality is, that it's not economically feasible to use clay materials everywhere. Clay is a commodity in New Orleans; and when I say commodity, I mean it. Good, high plasticity indexed clays are worth sometimes as much as $30/ CY, delivered, in place. The cost breakdown is typically like this: $10/ Cy just to purchase the material, pure slop, by the way. then $12-$15/ Cy just for transportation, then about $10/ Cy to process (dry the slop out) and install in lifts, compact, and dress. All said, it's cost is about $30/ Cy!!!!!.............
By comparison, the taxpayer can save $5/ Cy by using sands in lieu of clays. And if the purpose is to simply add weight, then sand is a good alternative to clays. BTW: Sand can be bought for $5/ Cy.

Hope this helps some of you. I know that all that money being spent here in South La. is a sore spot for the taxpayers... but there are more interests than meet the eye.

I've seen a similar method done at a hydro-electric dam near where I'm from. They have dikes to hold water for the forebay in and on the dry side they have a very wide pad probably three feet thick made out of sand running along the length of the dike. My dad is a geotechnical engineer and he pretty much gave me the same explanation.