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new Deere controls?
- Thread starter plowking740
- Start date
Grader controls ?
Interesting to see other control concepts .
Now with "work by wire controls" , maybe everyone can have a replacement module to carry with them as they go from one brand machine to another.
Just pull out the existing module and plug in your own customized module. LOL
The industry finally came around to standardized grader controls, now running off again, trying to seek a sales gimmick to assure brand loyalty, or some competitive edge.
The parameters of machine design has been captured by manufacturers, with the last remaining improvement to exploit , is operator efficiency. For many years that was largely ignored by manufacturers, the operator had to adapt to the controls, now , the reverse.
Building controls for the human that operates.
Interesting to see other control concepts .
Now with "work by wire controls" , maybe everyone can have a replacement module to carry with them as they go from one brand machine to another.
Just pull out the existing module and plug in your own customized module. LOL
The industry finally came around to standardized grader controls, now running off again, trying to seek a sales gimmick to assure brand loyalty, or some competitive edge.
The parameters of machine design has been captured by manufacturers, with the last remaining improvement to exploit , is operator efficiency. For many years that was largely ignored by manufacturers, the operator had to adapt to the controls, now , the reverse.
Building controls for the human that operates.
Those are the new controls Deere is working on, have the same "antler rack" pattern as current graders, without the effort required to run them. They are trying to improve upon the Cat joystick shortcomings and not stay with the same old. You can steer with the joystick or the steering wheel, at any time.
Might become the new standard for graders. It is awesome because the good old experienced operators and novices can both run them. Deere engineers and marketing people are trying to listen to what operators want, not shove some new controls down their throat. The good thing is they will still offer manual "antler rack" controls if you want them. Geno
Might become the new standard for graders. It is awesome because the good old experienced operators and novices can both run them. Deere engineers and marketing people are trying to listen to what operators want, not shove some new controls down their throat. The good thing is they will still offer manual "antler rack" controls if you want them. Geno
Grader Controls ?
I've spent a good part of my entire life running graders . 38 years in fact on all heavy equipment.
I know that there is room for improvement ! I've noticed that sometimes the shortest cycle time between reponse, takes a long time to create. I.E. Operator input !
Location of levers, dexterity of the Operator, recognizing the time lag, and need to lead, or wait ! For proper tool action response.
This is where Operator Experience and skill anticipates job site conditions visually, that NO computer, will NEVER overcome, much as the engineers dream !
The Human element will always be there, even if it is remote controlled.
Got to say something about physical effort , 3# controls ?? Too much ?? Whats next for the weaklings of society ???
It takes 3# to pull the trigger of the average rifle.
Just wonder somedays where this technology is leading us .
John Deere will never lead the way in grader sales with their ideas. There are many reasons for this . From a lifetime of use, running graders.
My thoughts.
I've spent a good part of my entire life running graders . 38 years in fact on all heavy equipment.
I know that there is room for improvement ! I've noticed that sometimes the shortest cycle time between reponse, takes a long time to create. I.E. Operator input !
Location of levers, dexterity of the Operator, recognizing the time lag, and need to lead, or wait ! For proper tool action response.
This is where Operator Experience and skill anticipates job site conditions visually, that NO computer, will NEVER overcome, much as the engineers dream !
The Human element will always be there, even if it is remote controlled.
Got to say something about physical effort , 3# controls ?? Too much ?? Whats next for the weaklings of society ???
It takes 3# to pull the trigger of the average rifle.
Just wonder somedays where this technology is leading us .
John Deere will never lead the way in grader sales with their ideas. There are many reasons for this . From a lifetime of use, running graders.
My thoughts.
Control effort
When operating a grader,doing fine grade work, I like the fact that the controls offer up some resitence as my hands and fingers touch them. I just don't know that consentrating on touching the small joy sticks ,that I see on the Deere prototype, would be easier than resting my hand on conventional control levers and moving what ever combination I need at a given time.
That being said I will reserve further judgement until I can go "hands on" with this control system.
When operating a grader,doing fine grade work, I like the fact that the controls offer up some resitence as my hands and fingers touch them. I just don't know that consentrating on touching the small joy sticks ,that I see on the Deere prototype, would be easier than resting my hand on conventional control levers and moving what ever combination I need at a given time.
That being said I will reserve further judgement until I can go "hands on" with this control system.
Northart,
Have you run a D series Deere? You say Deere will never lead in graders and they are building exactly what you say you want. They have manual controls, the old guys who have run them for 38 yrs are just what they are targeting. These new controls are an OPTION (not standard) for the new kids on the block (like me) who are not tuff old buggers like you. Run a NEW (not old) Deere and tell me what you think. Maybe you have run one, if so I would like to know what you didnt like about it. They have more than tripled grader sales since 2005 when the D series came out and the good old boys like you are buying them. They put every effort into listening to operators. Geno
Have you run a D series Deere? You say Deere will never lead in graders and they are building exactly what you say you want. They have manual controls, the old guys who have run them for 38 yrs are just what they are targeting. These new controls are an OPTION (not standard) for the new kids on the block (like me) who are not tuff old buggers like you. Run a NEW (not old) Deere and tell me what you think. Maybe you have run one, if so I would like to know what you didnt like about it. They have more than tripled grader sales since 2005 when the D series came out and the good old boys like you are buying them. They put every effort into listening to operators. Geno
plowking740
Well-Known Member
I dont want to bring down any one, but I have the ...privilage to run a brand new 160 h cat and a brand new 772d deere, with full gps blade control, and will have to say that the deere still needs to blade a few more miles of road to match the cat. Sorry.
The cabs are smaller, seats are smaller, Deere has almost twice as many grease nipples, the brass in the blade slide dosent last near as long as the cat, the Ripper/ scaraffier would build up with mud/clay, and lay on the the cross bar in the frame, and when you raised it, it would lift whatever was on it into the grill, bending it. The blade dose not lift high enough, a PIG on fuel, ( two good days of pushing in a cat compaired to 1, 1 1/2 in deere. ) the 'feel' in the deere is not the same the older 140's i ran or the 160.
The best thing I like about the deere is the Transmission and 6 wd options. Trans is smooth shifting at any gear and I like the 16 different options on the front end. it can be very aggressive it you need it.
these are just a few of the things that come to mind, I know that its not much, but when you are compairing the too machines, it is a lot.
I dont consider my self an old hand at these things,(37, with 14 yrs in a grader) but I think that If I had the choice between my 772 with 2500 hrs and using the old 140H wh have with almost 10 000, im gonna take the cat.
ok im done ranting have a good day.
The cabs are smaller, seats are smaller, Deere has almost twice as many grease nipples, the brass in the blade slide dosent last near as long as the cat, the Ripper/ scaraffier would build up with mud/clay, and lay on the the cross bar in the frame, and when you raised it, it would lift whatever was on it into the grill, bending it. The blade dose not lift high enough, a PIG on fuel, ( two good days of pushing in a cat compaired to 1, 1 1/2 in deere. ) the 'feel' in the deere is not the same the older 140's i ran or the 160.
The best thing I like about the deere is the Transmission and 6 wd options. Trans is smooth shifting at any gear and I like the 16 different options on the front end. it can be very aggressive it you need it.
these are just a few of the things that come to mind, I know that its not much, but when you are compairing the too machines, it is a lot.
I dont consider my self an old hand at these things,(37, with 14 yrs in a grader) but I think that If I had the choice between my 772 with 2500 hrs and using the old 140H wh have with almost 10 000, im gonna take the cat.
ok im done ranting have a good day.
Motor Graders
Hello Geno 795,
You must work for John Deere , or a dealer. As I very seldom see people promote JD graders. Especially operators.
In Alaska there are no new or late John Deere graders that I know of, "D" series ??
There are quite a few old JD 570's laying around, junked out in the villages. And elsewhere. Like the military. From the 80's when lot of Gov't money was floating around. They were the cheapest then.
Then Champion graders became prevalent for the Muni's and villages because they again were cheap. But always broke down. High maintenance.
Finally these (Gov't) people getting it figured out, that to maintain roads, airports, they got to have equipment that works.
Nowadays you see mostly Cat 160H graders around. The Cat 160H seems to fit the maintenance requirements for utilization and availabiltiy .
Me I have not run a Deere "D" series nor wish to.
I 've spent a lifetime running Caterpillar equipment and have been satisfied to make a living doing so. Construction contractors always owned and used Caterpillar Graders. 99+% of them still do here.
Maybe its the old and familiar that makes me comfortable knowing its capacities and limits , just like myself.
I already see the generational gap on this forum even, people enamored with the new electronic gadgetry. Not that it is bad, but the shift or trend is going that way.
Just like it was mostly cable dozers,excavators, that gave way to the hydraulics.
John Deere can target me all they want for grader sales, they are wasting their time.
They make good agriculture equipment , and they should stick with that in my opinion.
Hello Geno 795,
You must work for John Deere , or a dealer. As I very seldom see people promote JD graders. Especially operators.
In Alaska there are no new or late John Deere graders that I know of, "D" series ??
There are quite a few old JD 570's laying around, junked out in the villages. And elsewhere. Like the military. From the 80's when lot of Gov't money was floating around. They were the cheapest then.
Then Champion graders became prevalent for the Muni's and villages because they again were cheap. But always broke down. High maintenance.
Finally these (Gov't) people getting it figured out, that to maintain roads, airports, they got to have equipment that works.
Nowadays you see mostly Cat 160H graders around. The Cat 160H seems to fit the maintenance requirements for utilization and availabiltiy .
Me I have not run a Deere "D" series nor wish to.
I 've spent a lifetime running Caterpillar equipment and have been satisfied to make a living doing so. Construction contractors always owned and used Caterpillar Graders. 99+% of them still do here.
Maybe its the old and familiar that makes me comfortable knowing its capacities and limits , just like myself.
I already see the generational gap on this forum even, people enamored with the new electronic gadgetry. Not that it is bad, but the shift or trend is going that way.
Just like it was mostly cable dozers,excavators, that gave way to the hydraulics.
John Deere can target me all they want for grader sales, they are wasting their time.
They make good agriculture equipment , and they should stick with that in my opinion.
plowking740
Well-Known Member
somone has to lead the pack, but Ill admit, Cat dosent set the benchmark on all construction equipment.
Tigerotor77W
Senior Member
Someone is darned lucky to have gotten a pic; I wasn't allowed to take any. The engineers on the machine were even more picky about who went up there to look around than the Cat reps on the D7E were.
farm_boy
Senior Member
Probably the same reason that Cat copies anything that they are lagging PINS in. Take a look at their first backhoes(copy of Case and JD), first skid steers(copy of Bobcat) and current small dozers(copy of JD). If that doesn't work they exit the business......ie the ag tractor and combine market. Not bagging on Cat here....simply stating a fact. It is sales and marketing 101 to copy or better the market leader. If that doesn't work and the company is still bleading money....the good business decision is to exit. Take a look at any heavy equipment brand and you can see an example where they entered and exited the market due to certain circumstances. Again, you can take a look at ANY major manufacturer out there and if they are not benchmarking their major competition and what their competition's customers want they are never going to grow their market share. The interesting thing here in regards to graders is that it appears that Cat has stepped out on a limb and alienated its main audience on the grader....the old grader hand.
From the operators that I have talked with, the M is great if all you are doing is grading roads and going straight doing two functions at once. Put that same machine on a busy contruction site working in tight quarters around finished concrete performing 4-5 functions at the same time. It is going to take significant time in the seat to reach the level of production that an experienced grader hand has with the traditional lever layout. The M series has been known for nearly two years. If every grader manufacturer was truly out to copy Cat don't you think that someone would have shown something similar at the show? Maybe it isn't as great as the marketing and engineering team thought it to be.
Northart
I'm in agreement with you. Cat pretty well speaks for itself. We've run all the other stuff and always go back to Cat. That M Series blade will be the same as the G Series when it come out. It'll take about a week for a good operator to get onto it and the drivers will never learn. Been through all the flavors and always go back to Cat. As a matter of fact, on out Kamoatsu hoes we always use Cat pins and U/C. We always put Cat U/C on everyting because of the life we'd get out of them. And yes Northart, I think about everyone on this site probably makes their living off of Cat or will sooner or later.
I'm in agreement with you. Cat pretty well speaks for itself. We've run all the other stuff and always go back to Cat. That M Series blade will be the same as the G Series when it come out. It'll take about a week for a good operator to get onto it and the drivers will never learn. Been through all the flavors and always go back to Cat. As a matter of fact, on out Kamoatsu hoes we always use Cat pins and U/C. We always put Cat U/C on everyting because of the life we'd get out of them. And yes Northart, I think about everyone on this site probably makes their living off of Cat or will sooner or later.
Equipment Evolution ?
Hello Geno795,
Just wonder where you and that JD Grader will be 10-20 years from now . Will it survive the test of time ?
After a lifetime of Operating equipment, I ask that with some experience.
I just wonder now, about the future Operator health problems. Repetitive Motion Injury, ala Carpal Tunnel Syndrone. With all this hand and finger motion control effort.
Times sure have changed, from 25# controls to mere ounces. From Freezing you ass off or burning up from hot engines, to modern air conditioned cabs, with constant shirtsleeve temperature. From the shrill deafening engine & exhaust noise , fumes, to living room quietness.
From arm waving,screaming, bosses and grade checkers, to viewing a job site plan, on the computer screen.
Quite remarkable change, over my lifetime.
Throughout it, many , many different manufacturer's have come and gone.
Caterpillar is still here after 100 years.
Hello Geno795,
Just wonder where you and that JD Grader will be 10-20 years from now . Will it survive the test of time ?
After a lifetime of Operating equipment, I ask that with some experience.
I just wonder now, about the future Operator health problems. Repetitive Motion Injury, ala Carpal Tunnel Syndrone. With all this hand and finger motion control effort.
Times sure have changed, from 25# controls to mere ounces. From Freezing you ass off or burning up from hot engines, to modern air conditioned cabs, with constant shirtsleeve temperature. From the shrill deafening engine & exhaust noise , fumes, to living room quietness.
From arm waving,screaming, bosses and grade checkers, to viewing a job site plan, on the computer screen.
Quite remarkable change, over my lifetime.
Throughout it, many , many different manufacturer's have come and gone.
Caterpillar is still here after 100 years.
roadrunner
Well-Known Member
Why is everyone arguing over second place graders?(Cat and Deere).
We all know Volvo is #1 out there do we not?
I think we got a liitle off topic here but had to set the record straight!
We all know Volvo is #1 out there do we not?
I think we got a liitle off topic here but had to set the record straight!
Grader4me
Senior Member
farm_boy
Senior Member
Caterpillar is still here after 100 years.
Remember that John Deere is still here after 171 years
You kidding....right?:lmao
Northart,
You are assuming I am young?? I might have as much experience as you do. You are going on past and assumptions, I am basing my comments on facts and the future of our business. You like the old graders, CAT no longer makes the old graders, the H series are GONE! My comments come from my experiences with all makes of graders. I respect your opinion and am thinking that Deere does too. No old time operators command more respect than a good blade hand. Things change. I have graded with knuckle busters and the first Deere electric controls. Didn't like either one of them, but, they will both produce the same finished product, as a new grader, period.
Plowking,
The Deere cabs are smaller maybe than the old H series Cats, but the new M series Cats are way smaller. You are right, small cabs tick me off. You can't talk about 160H if you want to buy a new grader, they are GONE. That is exactly why I like the D series Deere grader, it is more like the old H series Cats than the new Cat is. Which was my original point, Deere listens to us operators better than Cat does. Thanks for letting me part of this discussion.
I respect all opinions and comments.
Thanks Geno
You are assuming I am young?? I might have as much experience as you do. You are going on past and assumptions, I am basing my comments on facts and the future of our business. You like the old graders, CAT no longer makes the old graders, the H series are GONE! My comments come from my experiences with all makes of graders. I respect your opinion and am thinking that Deere does too. No old time operators command more respect than a good blade hand. Things change. I have graded with knuckle busters and the first Deere electric controls. Didn't like either one of them, but, they will both produce the same finished product, as a new grader, period.
Plowking,
The Deere cabs are smaller maybe than the old H series Cats, but the new M series Cats are way smaller. You are right, small cabs tick me off. You can't talk about 160H if you want to buy a new grader, they are GONE. That is exactly why I like the D series Deere grader, it is more like the old H series Cats than the new Cat is. Which was my original point, Deere listens to us operators better than Cat does. Thanks for letting me part of this discussion.
I respect all opinions and comments.
Thanks Geno