I have a small weld shop and I do a lot of bucket repairs for my coustomers and now they want me to make pins. I have the equiptment to make them but with out testing them I will not know what they are made of. So I am wondering does any one know what pins are made of?
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Making Pins
- Thread starter weldman
- Start date
Squizzy246B
Administrator
G,day Weldman & Welcome. Its the guys like you that keep us going. My local guy has a small shop for making buckets and attachments for skids and mini-ex. His name is Bob so we call him Bob the (Bucket) Builder.
The problem I have found with steels these days is that they all go by Brand Names rather than descriptive or ASTM codes. Anyway, its better to wear out a pin than the metal its housed in so the golden rule is not to go too hard. Generally the higher the tensile strength the better. This means the low alloy tensile steels. Most of the larger pivot pins on machinery are case hardened by the manufacturer.
You need to check with your local steel supplier for pivot pins in machinery but if its locking pins etc for things like buckets then I have used stainless on occaision...because thats all the stock I had in the shed
. I have also successfully used tool steel....but thats not a recommendation by any means. A bucket falling off an excavator is no laughing matter.
The problem I have found with steels these days is that they all go by Brand Names rather than descriptive or ASTM codes. Anyway, its better to wear out a pin than the metal its housed in so the golden rule is not to go too hard. Generally the higher the tensile strength the better. This means the low alloy tensile steels. Most of the larger pivot pins on machinery are case hardened by the manufacturer.
You need to check with your local steel supplier for pivot pins in machinery but if its locking pins etc for things like buckets then I have used stainless on occaision...because thats all the stock I had in the shed
. I have also successfully used tool steel....but thats not a recommendation by any means. A bucket falling off an excavator is no laughing matter.
digger242j
Administrator
For what it's worth, years ago I asked what type of steel pins were made of, and the guy at the parts counter told me he believed they were made of "cold rolled" steel. This is the first time since then I've had occasion to share that information, so I can't vouch for its accuracy, but it may give you a place to start...
It didn't occur to me until I re-read this line a short time ago, but there's something to think about here. Will you have insurance coverage for any failures of the pins you make? It may never happen, but we certainly have ways of finding all the weaknesses in the equipment, and if a pin you made fails, for whatever reason, you could be found liable. Not trying to throw cold water on what seems like a good idea, but I'd hate to see you giving all your money to the lawyers...
It didn't occur to me until I re-read this line a short time ago, but there's something to think about here. Will you have insurance coverage for any failures of the pins you make? It may never happen, but we certainly have ways of finding all the weaknesses in the equipment, and if a pin you made fails, for whatever reason, you could be found liable. Not trying to throw cold water on what seems like a good idea, but I'd hate to see you giving all your money to the lawyers...
I had a pin and it's boss replaced at a machine shop on my Ford backhoes bucket link. The material (pin & boss) are listed as grade 4140 material.
Whatever 4140 is ?? With those replaced, and two zerks installed into the boss, it was just over $600.00 for the repair.
Whatever 4140 is ?? With those replaced, and two zerks installed into the boss, it was just over $600.00 for the repair.
Squizzy246B
Administrator
Jeff D. said:
Jeff 4140 is a good steel for making buckets and landscape rakes, grapples etc....and (from memory) the 41 stands for 41,000 lbs tensile strength...which means it has no greater tensile strength than mild steel but it has other physical characteristics which make it ideal for earth moving gear.
The 41 being the first two numbers does stand for the tensile strength in some stick welding rods and maybe other designations. But the SAE ASTM 41xx series is an alloy group thats major alloying components are chromium and molybdenum, most people just call is chromoly. The last 2 numbers indicate the percentage of carbon in the alloy. 4140 has .4% carbon in it. The tensile strength will vary with the heat treatment but plain annealed 4140 has a tensile strength around 95,000 psi and a yield strenght of 60,000 psi. With proper heat treatment the tensile strength can be increased to 290,000 psi, but as with almost any steel as you increase the tensile strength though quenching you also increase hardness but then you loose ductility and the material's ability to withstand shock loading.
digger242j
Administrator
Mike J, welcome to the site!
You seem to know what the heck you're talking about. (Either that, or you're just a really proficient BSer. ) Do stick around--we're all here to learn, and guys that know their stuff are always appreciated...
You seem to know what the heck you're talking about. (Either that, or you're just a really proficient BSer.
) Do stick around--we're all here to learn, and guys that know their stuff are always appreciated...
Squizzy246B
Administrator
Mike J, welcome, somebody who hasn't been out of the game for 20 years .
I found this:
MEDIUM TENSILE STEEL- to AS1434 1045
1045 is a medium carbon, medium tensile steel, supplied black as rolled, black as forged or normalised and bright drawn or smooth turned, offering good strength, toughness and wear resistance. Can be hardened and tempered in sections up to 63mm, to a tensile strength range of 620-850 Mpa
Typical application
Axles, bolts, connecting rods, hydraulic rams, pins, rolls, spindles, shafts, studsetc, requiring higher strength than 1020 / 1030 or similar grades can provide.
Welding
Readily welded black as rolled, black as forged, normalised and bright drawn or smooth turned with correct procedure. Welding when through hardened, flame or induction hardened not recommended.
HIGH TENSILE STEEL 4140
4140 is a Chrome-Moly high tensile steel, generally supplied hardened and tempered to condition “1†in sections up to 100mm, with a tensile strength of 850 – 1000 Mpa and aiming for this strength range in larger sections. It offers a very good balance of strength and toughness with high wear resistance.
Typical Applications
Axles, conveyor parts, crow bars, gears, logging parts, spindles, shafts, sprockets, studs, pinions, pump shafts, rams, ring gears, etc. requiring higher strength than 1045 can provide.
Machinability
Now available with improved machinability by calcium injection treatment.
Welding
Welding in the annealed condition is preferred and avoided if possible when hardened and tempered, due to its effect on the mechanical properties. Welding in the nitrided, flame or induction hardened condition is not recommended.
.I found this:
MEDIUM TENSILE STEEL- to AS1434 1045
1045 is a medium carbon, medium tensile steel, supplied black as rolled, black as forged or normalised and bright drawn or smooth turned, offering good strength, toughness and wear resistance. Can be hardened and tempered in sections up to 63mm, to a tensile strength range of 620-850 Mpa
Typical application
Axles, bolts, connecting rods, hydraulic rams, pins, rolls, spindles, shafts, studsetc, requiring higher strength than 1020 / 1030 or similar grades can provide.
Welding
Readily welded black as rolled, black as forged, normalised and bright drawn or smooth turned with correct procedure. Welding when through hardened, flame or induction hardened not recommended.
HIGH TENSILE STEEL 4140
4140 is a Chrome-Moly high tensile steel, generally supplied hardened and tempered to condition “1†in sections up to 100mm, with a tensile strength of 850 – 1000 Mpa and aiming for this strength range in larger sections. It offers a very good balance of strength and toughness with high wear resistance.
Typical Applications
Axles, conveyor parts, crow bars, gears, logging parts, spindles, shafts, sprockets, studs, pinions, pump shafts, rams, ring gears, etc. requiring higher strength than 1045 can provide.
Machinability
Now available with improved machinability by calcium injection treatment.
Welding
Welding in the annealed condition is preferred and avoided if possible when hardened and tempered, due to its effect on the mechanical properties. Welding in the nitrided, flame or induction hardened condition is not recommended.
So, 4140 or 1045 would both be good material to build pins with then??
That's how I read it, from the posted info, but no-ones come right out and said it yet??:beatsme
(Some people you need to drag the crayons out and draw a picture, huh??):bouncegri
That's how I read it, from the posted info, but no-ones come right out and said it yet??:beatsme
(Some people you need to drag the crayons out and draw a picture, huh??):bouncegri
I go to Penn State for mechanical engineering technology, that info came from a materials book we used in a metalurgy class I took and also from a table that our professor gave us in a design class I took.
As far as which material to use, I think that any of the plain carbon steels like 1045 will be cheaper than 4140. As far as which one will wear better, the 4140 has a higher hardness value but I don't think that its as simple as just picking a harder material and having it wear better. If it was always true that harder materials wear slower I don't think you would see rubber seals that wear grooves into steel axles, shafts etc.
The 4140 is a stronger material and my guess is that it would probably last longer but I don't think that a pin made from a steel like 1040 would break. To be 100% sure you would have to do a stess analysis on the pin in question. The stress would have to be low enough that the pin does not become fatigued. You also have to remember that pins are in a shear application and as a rule the ultimate shear stress of steel is usually about half of the tensile strength. Most of the pins are in double shear meaning that there are two areas that need to be sheared for the pin to break. I would think that you probably couldn't realy go wrong using something like 4140 but if you used a cheaper steel like 1045 i doubt the bucket would just fall off. To say for sure though I would need to know exactly what the forces are and the diameter of the pin.
I would like to know what material manufactures use to make their pins on say a new excavator. It would initialy be cheaper for them to use a steel like 1020. The pin would need to be larger than if the pin was designed with a higher strength material. But maybe another alloy with a better wear rate would be more cost effective in the long run? Maybe if someone would email one of the aftermarket bucket or thumb manufactures and asked what they used to make the pins they would tell us. My guess is that it depends on application. I think an excavator probably gets better pins then a loader attachment for smaller utility tractor.
I hope I don't sound like a BSer I'm just applying some of the stuff I'm learning and I am very interested in excavating and heavy equipment.
As far as which material to use, I think that any of the plain carbon steels like 1045 will be cheaper than 4140. As far as which one will wear better, the 4140 has a higher hardness value but I don't think that its as simple as just picking a harder material and having it wear better. If it was always true that harder materials wear slower I don't think you would see rubber seals that wear grooves into steel axles, shafts etc.
The 4140 is a stronger material and my guess is that it would probably last longer but I don't think that a pin made from a steel like 1040 would break. To be 100% sure you would have to do a stess analysis on the pin in question. The stress would have to be low enough that the pin does not become fatigued. You also have to remember that pins are in a shear application and as a rule the ultimate shear stress of steel is usually about half of the tensile strength. Most of the pins are in double shear meaning that there are two areas that need to be sheared for the pin to break. I would think that you probably couldn't realy go wrong using something like 4140 but if you used a cheaper steel like 1045 i doubt the bucket would just fall off. To say for sure though I would need to know exactly what the forces are and the diameter of the pin.
I would like to know what material manufactures use to make their pins on say a new excavator. It would initialy be cheaper for them to use a steel like 1020. The pin would need to be larger than if the pin was designed with a higher strength material. But maybe another alloy with a better wear rate would be more cost effective in the long run? Maybe if someone would email one of the aftermarket bucket or thumb manufactures and asked what they used to make the pins they would tell us. My guess is that it depends on application. I think an excavator probably gets better pins then a loader attachment for smaller utility tractor.
I hope I don't sound like a BSer I'm just applying some of the stuff I'm learning and I am very interested in excavating and heavy equipment.
digger242j
Administrator
I was just kidding when I mentioned that. You don't sound like a BSer, but then the good ones never do...
Squizzy246B
Administrator
digger242j said:
I have spent ages looking for this as it nearly happened to us with a sheared locking pin that allowed the main pin to come halfway out of the quick hitch. These guys were not so lucky...well they were down right negligent but it can happen so easily:
http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/Corporate/Media/statements/2005/November/Demolition_company_f.html
Last edited by a moderator:
i've made quite a few pins for backhoes out of Cold Roll...probably nothing over 1 3/4"...with no problems/fast wear
Mike J...you might have a better chance of a Mfg. telling you what they're made of...explaining you're a student in a mech. eng. class and working on some type of project...
Mike J...you might have a better chance of a Mfg. telling you what they're made of...explaining you're a student in a mech. eng. class and working on some type of project...
Thanks Mike J and Squizzy both for the info. I imagine you really would need to know specifics of the application before recommending a material, and a blanket statement saying "xxxx can be used for pins" could be oversimplifing the question.
As far a specifics, in my application, my invoice listed my pin as 1 1/2" diameter X 12" long. It has a small plate attached(welded) to one end of the pin which prevents it from turning in relation too the bucket (pin must rotate inside the "boss") which is 2 1/4" outside x 8" wide. I don't know how much force is transferred through it. I could measure the ram, but don't know the system peak pressure, so that figure may be mute without that.
I'm not that interested in knowing if the machine shop has done it right( it appears so,and wouldn't change my use of it anyways) but just trying to further the discussion, and help Weldman in his question.:thumbsup
As far a specifics, in my application, my invoice listed my pin as 1 1/2" diameter X 12" long. It has a small plate attached(welded) to one end of the pin which prevents it from turning in relation too the bucket (pin must rotate inside the "boss") which is 2 1/4" outside x 8" wide. I don't know how much force is transferred through it. I could measure the ram, but don't know the system peak pressure, so that figure may be mute without that.
I'm not that interested in knowing if the machine shop has done it right( it appears so,and wouldn't change my use of it anyways) but just trying to further the discussion, and help Weldman in his question.:thumbsup
julesvalles
New Member
The pins are made out of 4140 steel and are inductive hardened to a depth of 2-3mms, prehardened 4140 will suffice but will wear more quickly- the pins cannot be hardened throughout as there is a very real danger that they will shear without warning, some manufacturers, such as Caterpillar, chrome them after they are surface hardened, conversely good quality chromed piston rod will do the job and do not have to be turned down, at least for Caterpillar and Komat'su.
Cheers
Cheers
Scrub Puller
Senior Member
Yair . . . I had always assumed 4140 was a standard steel for pins. It is readily available in rounds in various finishes. I have never used anything else.
Flanges can be welded on with no problem (at least I have never had a problem) . . . weld one side only with a good fillet equal to the thickness of the flange.
The most extreme application I have seen was draw-bar pins in D9's scrub pulling. From memory they were good for several hundred hours . . . the standard hardened Cat pins wouldn't last a day.
Cheers.
Flanges can be welded on with no problem (at least I have never had a problem) . . . weld one side only with a good fillet equal to the thickness of the flange.
The most extreme application I have seen was draw-bar pins in D9's scrub pulling. From memory they were good for several hundred hours . . . the standard hardened Cat pins wouldn't last a day.
Cheers.
Ronsii
Senior Member
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I see this old thread got revived Another way to verify what material a pin is if you think it might be something exotic and don't want to take a chance on using the wrong replacement material is head over to your closest large scrapyard the yard that actually grinds up metal... they will certainly have an XRF gun and for a small sum... or maybe just some BS'ing they can shoot it for you and tell you exactly what the molecular makeup is... if it's plated you might want to take that off first.
Another way to verify what material a pin is if you think it might be something exotic and don't want to take a chance on using the wrong replacement material is head over to your closest large scrapyard the yard that actually grinds up metal... they will certainly have an XRF gun and for a small sum... or maybe just some BS'ing they can shoot it for you and tell you exactly what the molecular makeup is... if it's plated you might want to take that off first.