Light Forestry and Clearing contracting

[FarmerAlex]

Gents here is my question

I currently have a 100HP 4WD Ag tractor, 40KPH road speed.
I have moved into doing mulching of farm pastures, and light brush. So far this is a niche market, plenty of work to keep me busy.

I also do a lot of firewood processing, sawing blocks then splitting with the tractor.

There have been quite a few enquiries for doing other cleanup jobs whilst i am there. Now my question is, i have looked at backhoes or a midi excavator.

My plan is to offer a complete clean up service with the option of digging out rocks, some stump work, clearing heavier brush, and using a thumb to handle the heavier blocks, with a splitting head attached.

The pros i see of each unit:

Backhoe: Loader for shifting soil, gravel, logs or other farm bits, bigger capacity, strong and fairly simple, not in the weekend rental size market.

Midi Excavator: Can be towed with the tractor, trailer sitting there for it, take the tractor mulcher all in one hit, better access for tighter spots, cheaper to run, no road registration or insurance.

Both have strong pros, keeping the tractor, mulcher and equipment together makes good sense, seeing as there is a trailer just sitting there an excavator would give that a use. It also keeps the tractor working, rather than just sitting.

Price wise each machine will be comparable.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

 

[FarmerAlex]

I think i am asking the wrong question in the wrong thread, as its more of a what machine is right for the job, rather than a financing one. Cheers

Alex

 

[eric12]

what size truck and trailer do you have? how many tons can you tow ontop of your tractor set up? backhoes are handy but if you already have a tractor id say your better off with a 50/60 size mini excavator and a loader attachment for your tractor. that way you have a combination of 2 machines to work with each other instead of one machine to do 2 jobs. id say it prefers on your preference of operating a backhoe or excavator to dig with and if you can add a loader attachment to your tractor reasonably. also it depends on your ability to tow the machines. sounds like you have an interesting niche market going.

 

[Randy88]

If you have more than enough work to keep you busy, when are you planning of doing even more, planning on hiring more help or cutting back on what your currently doing? I'd have to say if it isn't broken, why fix it, if your busy enough now, why expand and offer even more unless its your long term goal to operate and own a larger business.

To answer your question, Id take an excavator over a back hoe any day of the week, far more uses and versatility with excavator to me for the same money it wouldn't be a hesitation as to what I'd do, just an opinion though. With an excavator, you can turn 360 degrees and dump whatever your wanting to, with a backhoe you have a very limited swing side to side, then having to deal with the outriggers constantly are to me a total pain in the butt. If you get a mini with a blade, you have a machine that can do light leveling which would be a perk too. Just an opinion.

 

[FarmerAlex]

The motivation for another machine is as follows. Many of my customers will have other smaller jobs needing done when i get there, for example, a customer needed some mulching done. As i was talking to them, they were talking about, clearing paddocks and the need for some drainage work done. The jobs weren't huge, and most larger contractors wouldn't be really interested, however for me adding another 2 hours or so of work to a day adds another sweetener. Not only that, on another job i had completed all my work, and the old guy asks if i could move an old stump the council had left next to his driveway, it took me 3 mins to shift it, but that made his day with a smile ear to ear.

I don't want to purchase a truck as most of my jobs are quite close, the tractor runs along at 40kph, so its not that slow, with most of my work bunched so there isn't too much trundling around.

I would be looking to tow around a 4 ton machine if i was to go down the mini ex route.

Speaking to a mechanic though, he heavily advised me in no uncertain terms to steer clear of mini excavators due to the huge servicing costs and specialist oils.

Being in the country a backhoe, has standard oils, and any bearings or other parts are quite common, and it can handle the tougher conditions.

Another thought, was if my tractor was to have a major breakdown, relying on it to do all of the transport work would stop everything, whilst a backhoe could still keep going on. Just another thought

Again there are big benefits to the mini ex as well so i am still none the wiser

Cheers

 

[eric12]

i would steer clear of that mechanic if i was you, a mini excavator uses the same oils and hydraulic fluid as most any tractor/ backhoe/ any other piece of equipment. the only things that really take specific oils/ fluids are JCB with their weird brake and transmission fluids. a mini excavator uses regular hydraulic fluid and 15w40 weight motor oil. sometimes the hydraulic system will use a motor oil instead of hydraulic fluid but thats not too common. a 35 series excavator would do a lot of work for you however it seems like your pretty well set on buying a backhoe. and if you don't have a truck/ trailer to move the excavator then the backhoe will be easier to transport.

I would say for you unless you have a truck and trailer to move the mini excavator with and plan on buying a loader attachment or a skid steer to compliment the mini excavator with your probably better off with a backhoe especially for removing stumps and moving stumps or rocks around a job site.

I personally would invest in a truck and trailer to use with the mini excavator over a backhoe any day but i prefer excavators over backhoes.

 

[FarmerAlex]

Eric, i am swinging towards an excavator myself, 1 for the same price i am getting a newer machine, 2 i can tuck it away in a garage, 3 most of my work isn't very heavy, so for say 80% of the time it will be working comfortably, 4 i can easily store it away and if i want a truck in the future i don't need a really big unit to shift it.

 

[Randy88]

As I said before, I'm all for an excavator, they have far more uses and can do many things really well, as one guy told me about a backhoe, they too can many things, but none of them very well. If you get an excavator, make sure it is plumbed for hydraulics on the stick, and has a thumb on it, without a thumb you can only basically dig with it, with a thumb you have a machine that actually do many jobs, clear and pickup brush and trees, rocks and debris and hundreds of other things, until I put a thumb on mine, we didn't have a clue as to exactly how many jobs we could do with an excavator. My mid size excavator has the thumb, its also the one we put the most hours on and take to the most jobs each year. As to your debate of hauling it, your in a completely different country than I am and I have no idea what things are like over there, I'd personally have no problem moving a machine with a farm tractor and trailer, its how I first moved my first dozer, it works just fine, but distance and stopping are the issues I had and was forced to move into a truck and trailer and now have about four trucks and four trailers, its just a progression of the business I guess you could say.

Anyone can tell you how great a backhoe is to have, I personally hate them with a passion, yes you can drive them to the job site, but once there, you have nothing along with you, no tools, no way home or to run to town to get something, like waterline repairs or tile or whatever it is, you drove it to the job and unless you have a ride, your stuck in a backhoe. For me, we take a service truck and trailer to move the machines, I have a whole truck full of tools and supplies I take to certain jobs, just to save the chasing of parts and supplies, or for me, I'd have to haul a backhoe anyhow, or have a second person drive the truck. We also have our own locator and do our own locates of gas and water lines, telephone lines, etc, shovels and spades, soldering equipment for gas and copper water lines, cordless tools and the list is endless of what we have to have along.

I don't know exactly what type of work your planning on doing, if its to dig a hole to fix a waterline, or install a gas or electric line, then a backhoe will work just fine, for anything else, get an excavator. I'd personally never go any smaller than a 50 size machine and I'd want steel tracks and pads, I don't think anything of the rubber tracks, but I don't need the rubber either for the work I do, I'm not in town or on pavement or private driveways kind of work. I do land clearing to the extent of 20 plus acre tracts, tree's up to and over 5 feet in diameter and everything in between, water and sewer line repair and installation, plenty of ag drainage tile installation and repair and a couple hundred other things as well, I've never owned or had a need for a backhoe, considered it once a few years ago but my crew vetoed it big time so we bought another excavator, just somewhat smaller is all and have never looked back.

I like the z boom configuration if I was only to have one machine, not the standard or swing boom machines but brands are up to you for whats best in your area.

I know what and why your asking the questions your asking, I've been there and done that too, no matter what you get, make sure its worth taking home and has trade in value in case you decide you don't like it you can always get something different and if you have the work, and its out there to do, and your busy now, you have the battle won, keep doing what your doing and just add another machine and you can't go wrong no matter what you do. Now that said, in my area of the world, a backhoe means small repair jobs, like water line breaks and septic problems, if you have a backhoe people will call and never at the time of day or on the days you want to work either, like a sunday afternoon or at 10pm with a waterline repair, or on the coldest day of the year, or the day your kid is getting married or the most unplanned time you can imagine, and you have to go, if you don't you won't have a customer later on, and the largest drawbacks to a backhoe in my area. I work sun up to sun down 7 days a week, at the end of the day I'm tired and want to go to bed, I have no interest or desire to go drive 20 miles one way at 10pm and get a machine, load it, haul it another 30 miles to the guys broken water line, work half the night to fix his line he thinks won't wait till tomorrow morning, and then start the next day over again, that's what backhoes are for in my area and the biggest drawback to one, with an excavator, people don't relate those to miserable jobs at strange hours of the day for some reason and why my crew vetoed one big time. Just something to keep in mind. Best of luck

 

[FarmerAlex]

Randy, i would really like to thank you for your fantastic post!. Again really solid logic there, the backhoes day seems to have really gone now. The more and more i read into the pro's and con's the smaller excavator can run rings round a backhoe. I really can't see any benefits to a backhoe loader, other than i have a front loader bucket, its quicker around the jobsite for travelling and that's about it...

The flotation of backhoes isn't that great in really wet conditions, where as a excavator would hopefully float over some of the muck.

I would like to hear from a few more people, any thoughts or ideas would be very welcome.

FA

 

[eric12]

I would stick with a 35 sized machine that is easily towed behind a 2500 sized truck and go with regular rubber tracks if your going to be in lawns a lot or the rubber pads on a steel chain are pretty nice because if one track pad goes bad you just replace the one instead of the whole track. for everyday use the regular rubber tracks are nicer, they offer more floatation, and are easier on the lawn. i would stay away from all steel tracks on a mini, they're too expensive, they tear up lawns and are heavy. make sure to get auxiliary hydraulics incase you find a use for a hammer, auger, or stump grinder. I would stay away from thumbs, if you can operate an excavator you dont need a thumb and they get in the way when your digging trenches or around obstacles. if you want to handle trees or rocks a lot and cant use just a bucket id buy a grapple, theyre way more useful. i personally like komatsu and cat, i think john deere/ hitatchi are cheap and uncomfortable to run. quick couplers on bobcats/ volvo/ johndeere/ hitatchi are weird and a pain to use id get a plain pin grabbing coupler.

 

[FarmerAlex]

Well it looks like it is shopping time for a mini X , There are a few really nice machines out there. Going to be a really tough job picking one. I'll post some pictures of the work i have been doing.

 

[FarmerAlex]

Clearing logs, The excavator would have been great to shift the rounds around. The cleaning up would be have been a lot faster with a excavator there. A wood shear would also have helped as well.

 

[FarmerAlex]

Clearing Trees and an old shed on a town block. The forks on the front of the tractor was the only bit of equipment used for demolishing the shed and pushing the trees out.

A nice two day job.

 

[Plebeian]

Check the various small excavators before you buy one as they can vary in their performance.
e.g http://youtu.be/2EGYwspu8ZU (Cat stability difference between the c and d series, 5 tonne machine) 360 kg/ 800 ibs weight lift.
Some of the small excavators have a variable width undercarriage that can improve performance.
An interesting Aus grapple. http://youtu.be/hsR6wfkKRNc (grapple)
Another way is to use something like the 10 tonne wheeled Hitachi excavator and tow a ute with an A frame if you are allowed to. You get a bigger digger to your job and can still drive home to get the tractor and trailer.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Good one Plebeian!

Another way is to use something like the 10 tonne wheeled Hitachi excavator and tow a ute with an A frame if you are allowed to. You get a bigger digger to your job and can still drive home to get the tractor and trailer

I reckon folks need to think outside the square a bit. There is a current thread on here about backhoes being useless because you can drive it to the job okay but you need your truck with all your gear for if you have a breakdown.

I know a bloke who has been running backhoe for twenty five years towing a tandem trailer with his tools and welder and a trail bike in the bucket.

There is a local grader bloke works all over the shire here near Gladstone. He 'A' frame tows his Nissan tray back with fuel tank and tools . . . and camping gear. But then he's about my vintage so that sort of thing comes natural.

Cheers.

 

[Randy88]

When I asked about pulling a trailer behind a backhoe here in the states, my state anyhow, I was told it was illegal to do, you needed a hitch that was on the tractor from the factory in order to pull a trailer of any size or shape, and a backhoe didn't constitute a hitch, but the replacement for a hitch, if its legal in your country, go for it. Now that said, I know a guy who pulls a 20 foot trailer off his backhoe bucket, he welded on a hitch to the back of that and has to load the front loader bucket with dirt to keep the front wheels down on the ground so he can steer. I'd have no idea how he pulls that one off, but he's done it for years, I'd never make it out of my yard before being fined and tossed in jail, might even make the "how not to" educational video the dot puts on here once a year.

 

[FarmerAlex]

It's a very hard choice still. How bigger stump will a 4-5 ton machine handle in a decent amount of time? There is also the expectation of customers that I have bigger machine than theirs. Get a lot of funny looks with my small saw yet is been cutting timber since 1983 when my dad had it new. No rebuilds, just a sharp chain and new bars and sprockets every now and then

 

[mitch504]

Randy, I can tell you how he gets away with it. He's too dumb to know he can't and he's never asked.

I'm not being a smart alec here, I really am convinced that's how people get away with all kinds of stuff you and I couldn't. There is a guy here who pulls a 550 and a 410 JD behind a 1500 Chevy 4x4 and has done it for years.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . Randy88. All sorts of rules and regulations to contend with . . . when I say 'trailer' of course I just mean a little tandem trailer like you pull behind a car . . . can you pull a vehicle with an 'A' frame in the US?

Cheers

 

[FarmerAlex]

The crux is, with a Backhoe while it is running with me in it, the tractor is sitting doing nothing. If the tractor is running around the backhoe sits. I want two really neat machines, kept right up to scratch, with all bits working well. If the machines are busy all the time, that's easy to justify and keep on top of. The biggest worry I have is will the mini excavator be too small to handle the big jobs or will the backhoe be a nightmare too big for the smaller jobs, and potentially putting me in competition with larger earthmoving contractors. In time I intend to upgrade the size of tractor. Maybe then I can get a larger ex depending on my work. And toys it with that.