Leveler vs flat base?

[team 527]

Can anyone provide an opinion on if levelers are better for felling/shovelling than flat based machines? Aside from the comfort factor. I'm talking about straight production.

 

[Plebeian]

It depends on the economics, machine operator skill/ experience, terrain, tree size, what other machines (combinations)are on the crew. If harvesting small blocks on flat ground most of the time, with a bit of moderate slope, then a leveler may not be required. Steep terrain and every day in good wood, cutting for good cable yarders then the leveler and cable assist are more likely to pay.
Small woodlots - 4 flat base machines in dry conditions with some slope in one crew. One machine could stay bucking, piling and loading trucks while the other 3 shoveled.
Hyundai double grousers

Komatsu 300 on dry ground with grouser extensions

There are examples of Caterpillar forestry swing machines(non-leveling, D-FM series, low cab) in cable assist situations felling trees that have gone okay. By adding grouser extensions, etc
Cat/ satco not on wire

Cat 552 on wire
https://youtu.be/A0RRpHLLvUk

Tigercat 855 on wire

Canadians think it is worthwhile putting a tilt on the Madill 2850C

US - wildfire timber recovery John Deeres tethered.
https://youtu.be/Jz0E273LiWw

The Tigercat LSX870D is probably one of the more expensive machines having closed circuit track drive.

 

[mitch504]

Can you swing a big log uphill with a flat base machine?

 

[Tones]

Hey Plebeian, is it correct that levellers were developed by a bloke from Tauranga?

 

[Plebeian]

Washington Iron Works/ Allied ATH 28 was probably the first of the leveling tree harvester followed by others such as Timbco.

Hyundai on an ecoforst wire. (behind the logmax)

 

[John C.]

I don't know that there was a lot of difference in production capabilities in the base machines themselves. From what I saw, production was dependent on the terrain and type of forests you were working in. Tilters do bring in maintenance issues with all the joints between the carbody and house. All of them that I looked at for trade ins were loose under there. Fixing that stuff was a pain. They also seemed to get a lot of leaking hoses and fittings as well. Tilters do make is a lot more comfortable for the operators when working steep ground.

I do believe that the first tilters that I was aware of were the Washington brand loggers. The first successful ones I worked on were Timberjacks. I believe they were 2518s but I could be wrong about that.

 

[Plebeian]

The Timbco's were developed starting in the early 1970s. Timbco made early machines that had tracks and the engine down configuration. Timbco then partnered with Timberjack making parts for the Timberjack engine down machine. They split up and Timbco developed the engine up machine. Timbco was sold to Partek (Valmet) in 2000.

 

[John C.]

The story around these parts was that the engineer for Timberjack developed the idea there and then left the company to form Timbco. There was management conflict about costs and such at Timberjack. Probably all just stories I guess. I worked for the Timberjack dealer at that time and all those machines were bunchers. Never saw a Timbco working in the woods until a year or so after the 2518s showed up. Never cared for either machine as they involved a lot of climbing up and down and they always seemed to quit running a half a mile up or down a draw from the road.

 

[team 527]

Can you swing a big log uphill with a flat base machine?

That's kinda what I was asking,I can shovel big wood uphill with the flatbase but would a leveler be better?

 

[Plebeian]

The 568 has plenty of reach but the steeper ground is challenging.

Uphill shoveling Cat 552 and Summit wire

https://bioenergyinternational.com/...-logger-for-extreme-duty-steep-slope-logging/

 

[Tugger2]

Those things look impressive. But capital cost is huge and they look maxed out. Id think an old 071 Madill running butt rigging and 2 or 3 beads and 4 ambitious young guys would would shine on those settings. And be a more sustainable long term. Maybe its just my old fart attitude showing,but we sure have complicated things.

 

[John C.]

Less people means less insurance cost.

 

[Plebeian]

4 ambitious youngish guys and a moderate cable logging skill level and one breaks a leg and is very difficult to replace or replace him with a beginner who also gets hurt etc.

Beckett Logging (with older 552 on wire)

Forest Enterprises/ Speirs Logging Te Karaka/ Gisborne NZ (equivalent to about us$4.2 million in machinery replacing most on 4 to 5 year turnover)1) 855e on 2)wire machine 3) shovel 4)635H skidder 5)568 processor 6)538 loader 7)538 loader. (Port scene - 538 lifted into ship's hold to stack. @10.30)

 

[Tugger2]

Its hard to argue what you say i know im thinking like a dinasour . Thats some extremely well organized looking logging in those videos . Lots of wood minimal labor. Just makes a guy wonder what the rest of the population will do for a living.

 

[Plebeian]

Looking at the presented 2021 stats about 3 forestry workers per week are getting injured to the extent they are spending more than a week off work.
I will have to look up how many cable crews are still running choker-setters as their main method of cable log extraction.
What do the other people do? The legal medicinal green leaf operation probably does not struggle to attract staff.
Swing yarder crew (1x swing yarder, 2 x shovels, 1 x processor 1x loader)2 dozer guyline holds. Similar operations might have an extra (chainsaw operator) Quality Controler checking length and diameters on the ground.

The engineers are still trying to program/develop new options for old yarders.

 

[John C.]

I don't believe I've ever seen a landing site that large and using that many machines. Typical operations here are the yarder with the processor handling the landed trees into logs and a shovel sorting and loading trucks. Sometimes there is a dozer or skidder parked nearby to help push loaded trucks out of the hole where they were loaded.

Somewhere I have a video of a typical yarder logging show in this area.

 

[Tugger2]

It was 70 s and 80 s when i was working in the bush. I dont remember accident rates as you have listed above ,but maybe we had our heads buried in the sand. The company i worked for certainly had good safety practices as did most others we were associated with.The operation above looks very impressive ,but we could never find space for a landing that size,even a dry land sort was a major blasting and excavation project down at the beach. Long story short in simpler times a lot more guys working earning good wages ,wood going to mills nearby ,not on to a ship going to who knows where. More good jobs . Id bet you could say 25% of the homeless here now might have had those jobs and there was enough cash in the system to deal with the rest of the mess we see now. And its only getting worse every day .

Sry about the poor pic,a typical landing on the coast. Jam the yarder in on the bank,enough room for the shovel to stack a couple of loads . A truck and 2 simple machines ,probably 8 guys working .Maybe 5 6 loads a day.

 

[mitch504]

Around here, I don't know if you could even get insurance with manual falling. If you could, you couldn't pay it. Some loggers aren't even allowed to have a chainsaw on the job by their insurance companies.

 

[John C.]

I went to work for the Lazy W back in 1972. They gave me the choice to work in the mill or the woods tree planting. I went into the mill and a day later two brothers were killed on two different logging shows. Made up my mind that there was no future out there. Twenty years ago or so I had a cousin killed setting chokers. Taking men off the ground is worth every penny that was ever spent doing it.

 

[Plebeian]

The lower crew in post #13 have added a hydraulic harvestline, Sany base. The available 071 looked like a fix everything with rusty cable etc.
The John Deere harvestline claims 400 metric tonnes (440 us short tons) or more some days.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=837960090682347