legal ??

[Mdwstsnow512]

anyone know the legality of a dealership selling a machine in which the hour meter has been changed. and then not disclosing that to the seller(myself).
they claim they didnt know.

bought a skidsteer with 962 hrs on it, had major mechanical failure 10 hrs later (972), another dealer ran the serial ## when i took it to get fixed and it came back with 1988 hrs a year and a half ago. so it has at least 3 times the hours that it was sold to me with.

they are undecided what they are going to do about it as of yet but i am wondering what my options are legally. or rather just want to confirm that i am in the right here.

thanks
Nate

 

[skata]

wow, i'd raise hell.

 

[joedirt]

Mdwstsnow

I feel you are definitely in the right. I am not any kind of legal adviser, but I would be as fuming mad as I am sure you are. I would think that any reputable dealer would either refund your money and or give you a substantial discount. It looks like you have put 10 hours on the machine but how long of time lapse in days? There are many things I suppose a customer could do to jump start the dealers check book.

Go to the papers may be one. Another which is definitely detrimental to any business is word of mouth. I would think with this current "sluggish" economy, no dealer would like any bad publicity.

I do respect the fact you did not include the dealers name (no need to go to the wood shed just yet). Hopefully they will come to there senses before it gets bloody. My two cents....... Good Luck and I would sure like to hear how it turns out..

 

[Mdwstsnow512]

from the time i took possesion of the machine until the time it went down was under 1 week. took possesion on a monday, broke on saturday night.

i am truly hoping that the dealer steps up and does the right thing as i know i am in the right. it is both cheaper for them and me and less stressful to all- as i have told them.

thanks
Nate

 

[Mdwstsnow512]

and it has been over 2 weeks now since it broke, with the holidays and all answers have been slow. took almost a week just to determine what was wrong and what it was going to cost to fix, $12,000- a lil cheaper if i do it myself. machine cost me 16000

thanks
Nate

 

[DirtHauler]

I know its assumed, but just for the sake of removing any doubt, this failure was not anything that might possible be caused in 10 hours? (run out of water/oil, lifting too heavy of load, ran into something, etc?

 

[Countryboy]

I'm a little late , but Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums Mdwstsnow512! :drinkup

 

[Mdwstsnow512]

well, motor "blew up"

this is what the local dealership said. they didnt actually rip into the motor because i didnt want to pay them like 100/hr to look at it.
they believe more than likely it is and oil pump or oil pump related
the dummy light came on and it was loaded on a trailer and that was it. no more than a minute of runtime after the light came on.
has oil and all that, something internal broke.
everyone is saying that is cheaper and better to replace the motor then try to fix this one, since you dont know the depth of the problem and time is expensive, its cheaper to buy a new motor with a warranty then spend who knows how long trying to diagnose and fix an unknown problem or problems. especially do to the fact that the machine has over 3000 hours on it.

kinda sucks cause not only is it all a pain in the ass, its costing me money cause that machine could/should be workin right now not sittin.

later
Nate

 

[Mdwstsnow512]

I'm a little late , but Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums Mdwstsnow512! :drinkup

thank you

Nate

 

[John C.]

This is just opinion and not legal advise. You need to speak to an attorney for that. I am going to play devils advocate here from the dealer's stand point.

Hour meters are not odometers and have never been a legal representation of the amount time the machine has been used. All the dealers I have worked for state that the hour meter is a device to be used to set maintenance intervals "ONLY". In any case most all equipment is sold "AS IS, WHERE IS" unless specifically stated otherwise.

Legally the issue I think revolves on how the dealer represented the machine to you. You don't say how old the machine is or its year of manufacture. If the machine is more than a couple of years old and is the type that would see a thousand hours or more a year in normal use, then a knowledgable person would understand that the hourmeter reading might not represent the total operating time on the machine. On the the other hand you might be able to do something if the bill of sale states something to the effect of one so and so machine with XXX number of hours.

Did you purchase the machine from a franchised dealer of the machine. If so they may decide work something out. You get what is known as whine time to air your greavance. If you bought the machine from a curb stone dealer, then you might do better yelling at a rock wall.

I do hope the best for you.

 

[Northart]

Sale Terms ?

What kinda Sale terms did you get ?

24 hrs, 10 day warranty, 30 day warranty, "as is where is" , No Warranty express or implied .

Power train warranty , etc.

What kind of reputation does the dealer have ?

Even at 2,000-3000 range an engine shoudn't blow up !

Sorry to hear about something like this .

Auction items are hard to track, especially maintenance records.

See if you can find the previous owner. Find out something about the previous maintenance.

Unless you have something in writing, you are stuck, chalk it up to an expensive education.

 

[Squizzy246B]

In my part of the world Non-disclosure is becoming a real issue at the point of sale. It doesn't matter what the meter "may" be for...it comes down to the fact that someone knows the reading is inaccurate and did not disclose it at the point of sale. This has been a well trodden path in some of hour courts recently, mostly on illegal extensions to houses and odometer readings on trucks. In most cases the Judge has determined "failure of duty of disclosure" under our Trades Practices Act applied where it is considered that

the non-disclosure was deliberate

We all know that hour meters fail, and that engines get changed etc but pointing out the probable or possible inaccuracy can be a duty of disclosure. I believe most dealers have some fine print somewhere in their contracts to try and elleviate any responsibility...and probably rightly so in many cases. On the reverse side I see that as seller its inferring you have to ensure the facts are straight at the Point of Sale...and this is not always possible.

I have seen operators disconnect their hour meters and think they are real smart for their machine showing less than true hours. It seems stupid to me because people get to know machines working in their area...and low hours at sale raises a big red flag...de-valuing the machine.

I suppose at the end of the day the hour meter is not a guarantee of true hours so you have to treat it that way...unless, like I said above...its obviously a deliberate attempt to misrepresent the machine....and I aint no Legal Weasel!.

 

[Mdwstsnow512]

it was sold as-is where is no warranty
but it was sold to me with 962 hours
from a dealer that is not a franchised dealer of this brand of machine, but of another type of machine. - who from all records and dealing is reputable(pretty large 5 or 6 locations)
i found out when the franchised dealer i took it to for repairs ran the service record( public knowledge to a dealer) wasnt that hard for me to do, should have done it first but didnt think i needed to- cause thats part of the reason to buy a machine from a dealer- a little trust.
the machine is an 2002 and i have seen many with as little as 500 hours or as much as 5000 so it was not unreasonable for this machine to have the hours it was sold as. it did look a little rough but it was just paint and i was told the previous(original) owner did some forestry work and that would explain most of it.

in my eyes,
it is similiar to buying a car from a dealership driving it home. getting pulled over and arrested a few days later because the vehicle is reported stolen, going back to the dealer and them saying " we didnt know, we didnt check - sorry your screwed."

thanks
Nate

 

[Mdwstsnow512]

heres what they are sayin

i pull the motor, ship it to them
i am responsible for any rental machine
all of this on my bill.

they will repair the motor or replace it if necessary and ship it back to me
they pay for all of this

they cover the motor only with a 6 month warranty

i put it back in.

does this sound fair?

im just a little worried about the rest of the machine, the hydraulics and all, not to mention the motor down the road(after 6 months)

thanks
Nate

 

[woberlin]

That sounds faily reasonable to me, if you bought it "as is" with no waranty. I would not doubt that somewhere in the fine print of your paperwork it says they do not guaranty the hour meter to be correct. Maybe you should paint it up while it is down, and then sell it once it is back together if your worried about future issues. Just my 2 cents.

 

[joedirt]

Options

heres what they are saying

i pull the motor, ship it to them
i am responsible for any rental machine
all of this on my bill.

they will repair the motor or replace it if necessary and ship it back to me
they pay for all of this

they cover the motor only with a 6 month warranty

i put it back in.

does this sound fair?

I'm just a little worried about the rest of the machine, the hydraulics and all, not to mention the motor down the road(after 6 months)

thanks
Nate

I may ask the dealer what they will give you for it after the new engine is installed. Both of you know the history of the engine now. Hydraulic system would be harder to track but not impossible. You could pull an oil sample but who's to say the fluid wasn't recently changed. Check any service history as you did but if it was a parts only deal to previous owner, tough to track.
Maybe you can tell them you would like to "demo" one of their other machines. New machines have some pretty attractive finance rates with 0% interest. This may some how force them into giving you a decent trade number....... My 2 cents

 

[Mdwstsnow512]

im also a little worried about the quality of work going to be done, i mean they have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. and whos to know what there going to do, they could half-ass it and itll break again in a couple hundred hours.

i thought about sellin it, i think that even with the actual hours i can get out of it what i have into it. i dont want to screw someone like i got screwed.

later
Nate

 

[Alan Mesmer]

I think if they are willing to repair or replace the motor then that goes a long way towards helping you.
I would chalk it up to experience and be a little more careful next time if you buy used equipment. I am awful leary buying used just for that reason.
It is usually my luck that stuff like this happens. I bought a nice looking F150 from a friend and less than a month later the engine blew. I knew the history of this vehicle and it was well serviced but stuff just happens sometimes.
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and would like to think that the dealer wasn't playing games but who knows. They probably took it on trade.

I would pull the motor and let the dealer go at it. Tell them that when they give it back if it is not a new motor then I would insist on a service record of what they did to it and the parts that they replaced.
My 2 cents
Good luck
Alan

 

[skata]

what type of machine are we talking about here? if its a skidsteer, thats a lot of overall hours in my opinion.

 

[DirtHauler]

...
bought a skidsteer with 962 hrs on it, had major mechanical failure 10 hrs later (972)...thanks
Nate

what type of machine are we talking about here? if its a skidsteer, thats a lot of overall hours in my opinion.

not too bad for a 5 year old machine hours wise.