Legal advise

[Willis Bushogin]

Its bad enough work has gone to s#@t, but the 2005 Fecon FTX90L I bought about 7months ago, blowed a engine. (4 cylinder Duetz) I had a engine warranty until Aug 18, 2008 (this was the second engine, for this machine) seems like the fuel sensor was allowing too much fuel to go into the cylinders and it burnt the cylinders so bad the engine had almost zero compression. I guess all this happened the last week of work, I noticed it was losing power, the last day it just cut off and that was it.
OK Hears what I did
1. contacted the dealer I got it from(Pioneer Machinery, NCarolina) $70,000. We played phone calls for a week with them, Fecon and Duetz. I was told from Pioneer that they were bought out by Cat (Gregory Poole Equip) Greg Poole says they sold it, we are not responsibile. Fecon says were are not responsible, its a Duetz problem, Duetz says the only engine warranty we have is for the original engine for 2 years (remember this is the second engine)
By now the local Duetz dealer has removed the engine, $1500
I give up trying to do it myself, so I got a lawyer involved. He acted very aggressive, but after a month later a some $$$$, I fired him, went to another and his free advise was-not good. He said you have a case, BUT its going to cost alot in lawyer fees, you will get something, but the amount you get may not cover these fees, so it doesnt look good. He said the big companies, have been sued many times and they have learned all the way to make it tough. We are a small company, with very little cash flow and we have been making a $2000 a month loan payment since the middle of JUly, when the engine quit and thats a bunch of money when the machine is not working. I have had to get other guys to do my work, so Ive lost about $30,000.
The last thing the lawyer said was, try to handle it yourself.
Now I have a loan company, that says make the payment or we will take it and sue you for the balance, and I think this means they could/would take the rest of the business. Lawyers that want at least $5000 up front and it may take $10,000 more, basically the price of the engine.
I have never had anything repoed, but this has really got me in a bind.:Banghead

Does anyone have any advise that doesnt involve guns?

 

[zhkent]

What is it going to cost to get it going?

When did the machine quit?

Is loan through the equipment dealer?

If they came after your business is there much equity to lose?

 

[Red Bank]

What are the legal costs involved, verses paying to replace the engine? I hate to hear this happen to anyone, and I Can't believe the dealer is acting this way. One thing I learned from Ford was when something is replaced under warranty, the new warranty on that item is covered under a 12 month, 12000 mile component replacement warranty. Do you have any paperwork from the first engine replacement? Have you contacted the manufacturer? I would be hounding the salesman who sold it to me, I like to call them after hours on their cells and drive them crazy. I know things are tough but most of our salesmen will usually bend over backwards because they know we will be buying more equipment.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

I agree with Red Bank
You will need to check very carefully the documents for the replacement engine. I have had the same problem before with Ford, and similar problems with others.
It is always harder to get the warranty the second time around, even if it is clearly a defect.

 

[Willis Bushogin]

iLegal info reply

What is it going to cost to get it going?

When did the machine quit?

Is loan through the equipment dealer?

If they came after your business is there much equity to lose?

It will cost around $12-$15,000.00
Machine quit July15 2008
Machine is through a leasing co
I got the lease/loan myself
I would guess the value of equipment, besides this machine is around $90,000, its my worry, if that they could go after my home?

 

[John C.]

I don't know your total situation with this engine or the deal you did when you purchased the machine. This is not legal advise and can't be considered as such in any way. I can tell you some of the ways I have experienced these kinds of situations and how they were handled.

Generally warranties only cover the original period that the machine was sold under. One year warranty on the machine means twelve months after purchase. If the engine was replaced during that time the warranty still is only good for that one year time period. Repairs or replacements usually don't extend the original warranty. Manufacturers that use someone else's engine usually exclude that engine from their machine warranty and let the engine manufacturer handle themselves. I have had lots of trouble over the years with smaller engine manufacturers. Larger engine manufacturers have some whine time after the warranty period has run out which they call "Policy Adjustment". If there is a generally known problem, and you can show that you know about that problem, you might be able to bend an ear your way. Cat, Cummins and Detroit used to be pretty good about the whine time. Just remember, if you are out of the warranty time period, there is usually little legal basis that requires them to fix it.

Your situation sounds familiar to what I've seen happen on diesel powered screen plants and small ag equipment. The machine manufacturer buys and installs someone elses engine and the engineering is not quite right. Maybe the cooling is wrong, too much load, foreign debris packs things up or any of a number of things. The engine manufacturer fixes a few and says that it costs too much and they look for a way out, usually by pointing fingers at the machine manufacturer.

We usually documented every problem, when it happened, what the machine was doing when it happened, when we performed the manufacturer's recommended maintenance and so on. We tried to show that we did everything right and the engine still failed. I suggest finding anyone and everyone who also purchased this machine and get their experiences. Have they had failed engines? How did their dealers handle it? What did the engine manufacturer do for them.

Once you have some leverage in your back pocket, I would suggest you put together a meeting and lay out your case. We would try to include the dealer, engine manufacturer and machine manufacturer's representatives and maybe your financing agent at that meeting and then set a time table for a response. At times we might at some point in that meeting even let it slip about media involvement. Don't use that chip unless you have to.

It has been very rare that I've seen any attorneys do anything but cost you money in these situations. I'm glad to hear your second choice lawyer told you the truth up front. That seems to indicate that only fifty percent of attorneys are bad.

I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune.

Good Luck!

 

[RocksnRoses]

From the other side of the globe, I feel your pain, Willis Bushogin. It's called the "joy's of running your own business". I am wondering if the engine died in July 2008 and you have a warranty on that engine until August 2008, why won't Duetz honour it or at least meet you half way. I presume that warranty is for the second engine, because the original two year warranty would have run out. From my experience, once a machine is secondhand, the companies just don't want to know about it, they will supply the parts as long as they are paid for. I don't like the lawyer option, they will be the only ones who win. My priority would be to bite the bullet, get the engine fixed and get the machine back to work and earning money, so that you are not paying out to other contractors. If the loan company was half reasonable they should allow you to re-finance the loan to make the re-payments easier for you, our finance companies here are fairly understanding if you have a good finance history and experience a few problems. Also, I know "banks" is a dirty word at the moment, but if you have had a good working relationship with your bank over the years, surely they would be prepared to help you out until things get back on track again. I know I have had to go the bank many times, cap in hand over the years and they have usually been very helpful. There surely must be a lot of other options before they take your business and your house.
This probably doesn't help much, but I hope things do work out for you, I know what it is like, because I have been there many times myself. All the best.

Rn'R.

 

[zhkent]

John C. has been there and done that, and offers good advice.

I'm curious, and maybe John knows, is it harder to get money from them if you go ahead and put in a motor or are they more willing to supply an engine if it hasn't been fixed?

Willis,
So it would go back to a finance company? If it would go back to the dealer it would be tempting to let them have it and there fine warranty.
You asked if they could come after your house. Is your house listed as collateral on the loan? Is your other equipment?

I have no legal expertise at all, haven't been through anything like this, wanted to try to be of a little help exploring your options. I would be quick to defer to others with experience and knowledge.
Do you have the warranty in writing?

Just looking at it, it seems the first decision is do you have it fixed as quickly as possible or not?

 

[Willis Bushogin]

legal advise update

John C. has been there and done that, and offers good advice.

I'm curious, and maybe John knows, is it harder to get money from them if you go ahead and put in a motor or are they more willing to supply an engine if it hasn't been fixed?

Willis,
So it would go back to a finance company? If it would go back to the dealer it would be tempting to let them have it and there fine warranty.
You asked if they could come after your house. Is your house listed as collateral on the loan? Is your other equipment?

I have no legal expertise at all, haven't been through anything like this, wanted to try to be of a little help exploring your options. I would be quick to defer to others with experience and knowledge.
Do you have the warranty in writing?

Just looking at it, it seems the first decision is do you have it fixed as quickly as possible or not?

As stated before, the finance company will not help, I am planning to put that to test again, my first payment is due today and I havent made it.
I realize the best thing to do is fix the machine, but its not a engine rebuild job, it requires a new engine from Duetz, which requires about $8000 plus installation and thats a bunch of money right now.
I plan to start making phone calls on my own next week again

 

[DirectTech]

Willie I had first talked to when you were asking if anyone else was having duetz problems and I had mentioned a cust. who has a Rayco CL87 and he has replaced the engine three times well he ended up filling for bankruptcy to help pay for his bills and just last month his blew up again, now we will not touch it because he owes to much, Iam sorry to here your troubles but I would stay away from duetz. Hope the best for you.

 

[surfer-joe]

This happens a lot to small operators. There is a tendency in small businesses to not have good documentation and record keeping, to not read or understand the fine print on legal documents, to not have good maintenance records with oil sample reports. It's too bad because it winds up costing a guy a lot of money sometimes, maybe lose his business.

This was a used machine I take it, with a limited 'used equipment warranty' it seems. You say there was prior engine ruined, What caused it to fail do you know? How many hours did you actually put on your engine? Do you by any chance know the previous owner, or was it a rental maybe? Find out all you can, speak to the former owner if possible, ask why he got rid of the unit? Try to round up as much data as you can put together, pinpoint your engine failure cause, and carefully read the Deutz warranty that came with the 2nd engine. Look to see what the fine print says. See if you really think you have a case and that it was not something you did to cause the engine to fail. Then get another opinion from a good lawyer. This might be a problem the engine manufacturer has had in the engine in that series or in those prepared for that application. If so, you may be able to remind the dealer and Deutz that they have a "lemon" situation.

It also sounds to me like Poole is just putting you off. I doubt they managed to buy Pioneer without taking on Pioneer's machine warranties and other business liabilities. They might have, but you would have to try to find that out, and it seems Poole is not interested in you enough as a potential future customer to treat you right and be forthcoming. I'd beat on them again with fresh data if you can get it.

John C has some good points in his post above. Also, I've had extensive experience with Deutz engines in all kinds of applications. The air-cooled models are tough and gritty power plants that ask only an oil and filter change occasionally and a new fan belt every thousand hours or so. Otherwise, just like the energizer bunny, they just keep going.

Good Luck!

 

[Willis Bushogin]

legal advise update

This happens a lot to small operators. There is a tendency in small businesses to not have good documentation and record keeping, to not read or understand the fine print on legal documents, to not have good maintenance records with oil sample reports. It's too bad because it winds up costing a guy a lot of money sometimes, maybe lose his business.

This was a used machine I take it, with a limited 'used equipment warranty' it seems. You say there was prior engine ruined, What caused it to fail do you know? How many hours did you actually put on your engine? Do you by any chance know the previous owner, or was it a rental maybe? Find out all you can, speak to the former owner if possible, ask why he got rid of the unit? Try to round up as much data as you can put together, pinpoint your engine failure cause, and carefully read the Deutz warranty that came with the 2nd engine. Look to see what the fine print says. See if you really think you have a case and that it was not something you did to cause the engine to fail. Then get another opinion from a good lawyer. This might be a problem the engine manufacturer has had in the engine in that series or in those prepared for that application. If so, you may be able to remind the dealer and Deutz that they have a "lemon" situation.

It also sounds to me like Poole is just putting you off. I doubt they managed to buy Pioneer without taking on Pioneer's machine warranties and other business liabilities. They might have, but you would have to try to find that out, and it seems Poole is not interested in you enough as a potential future customer to treat you right and be forthcoming. I'd beat on them again with fresh data if you can get it.

John C has some good points in his post above. Also, I've had extensive experience with Deutz engines in all kinds of applications. The air-cooled models are tough and gritty power plants that ask only an oil and filter change occasionally and a new fan belt every thousand hours or so. Otherwise, just like the energizer bunny, they just keep going.

Good Luck!

As stated in my first comment, this was a used/new second engine. It was owned by the government before and they went to a larger machine. It had only 400 hrs on it when I got it, so I guess the first engine failed within this period. When the engine failed for me, it had 700 hrs, so I guess this engine is only good for about 300 hrs. Fecon has quit using this in this machines, they are going with Yanmar. Duetz has added a type of computer to help solve the fuel issue. Fecon has bought some machines back, but I cant get them to help at all.

I thank everyone for all the imput, I guess I was hoping for something magical. I guess Im from the old school, you buy something with a written warranty, you expect to have it honored.

 

[zhkent]

Your state attorney general might be able to help.
We had a company send us credit cards we didn't want, called and told the company that and they sent us 2 more.
We called the state attorney general and in a week or so the company called apologizing.
Somebody is cheating you and thats not legal. And that makes it the attorney generals business.

 

[zhkent]

And it shouldn't cost you if they'll help.

Best of luck

 

[Construct'O]

It's been a while since you last posted so hope things have changed for the better.

If you could come up with the money to replace the motor it wouldn't be another Detuz !!!!!!!! I would look to repower it with some other brand of engine.:beatsme

Good luck:usa

 

[driftless]

I'm going through this issue too, two days out of warrenty. First Deutz sent an email offering an replacement engine; after I complained that they should cover labor they reneged on that. I'm also very disgruntled that no one from Fecon or Deutz contacted me before my warrenty lapsed to tell me this was coming. They aren't hiding the fact that they know about this defect.

Anyone else out there that is/has dealt with this Fecon/Rayco Deutz issue, Please contact me...

Jesse Bennett
jesse@driftlesslandstewardship.com

 

[Construct'O]

This is old thread,so you might have to come up with a new name and add this old one to it.Not sure it doesn't need moved over into equipment part under other or something.:beatsme

Don't think many guys read the office thing here?

AS far as i posted on page one here.You proably need to move on and try to repower with a dependable engine.I would check with Cat or Cummins.Good luck !:usa

 

[Randy88]

Fecon has had a lot of trouble with everything they put together, we checked out the same unit and found they had hydraulic overheating issues, engine problems to no end, computer problems, warrenty problems and the list goes on and the sales guy couldn't figure out why I wouldn't stroke out 90,000 to buy a lemon, most every used one I looked at had a new engine and hydraulic pumps in, I'd repower or replaace the engine then trade it to something else, seems everyone that owns one does that, the bottom line is the company doesn't get it, stand behind the problem, fix it and they'll keep customers. Thats also why the resale is so bad on the used ones, most people call the previous owner and ask why they traded to something else and you get the same story. Fast foreward one year, I"ll give an example of Fecon I went to them to buy a 140,000 dollar power pack and grinding head for my excavator and they gave me a list of customers that had them, now this is the customers they gave me remember, every single customer gave me the same story about problems the company wouldn't fix, I told the company if they fixed the problems the customers had told me about on my unit I would buy one, the response from the company NO," we have no intentions on fixing those problems" that was when they were trying to sell me a unit???? Now when they give me a list I would presume they gave me the best customers they had and every one of them had the same complaints about the same unit and all complained about the company product support and a potential customer even tells them how to make the changes to solve the problems [me] wouldn't you at least make an attempt????? I walked out of the company that day and never looked back and will never go back in my lifetime!!!!