Just bought a Lull 644! How much does it weigh?

[Speedpup]

So OK, today I got a chance to look over the machine some more. One of the planetaries appears to be in need of service. There is a lot of play. When we moved the forklift off the trailer and brought it to the barn, I noticed that the right rear tire always tried to steer a different direction. So today I jacked it up off the ground and noted quite a bit of wobbling when I gripped the tire with my hands and moved it side to side. Question that I really dont' want to ask: How much in terms of dollars will this cost me?

My guess would be kin pin cone bearing has failed.

http://csapps.jlg.com/OnlineManuals...C_10K/Parts_1100820_04-24-09_ANSI_English.pdf page 34

 

[joestewart]

I worked on the 644 for half the day today. Here is what I found:

1. The wobbly wheel was caused by total disintegration of the inner wheel bearing. All the needles had fallen out of the cage. I could only find two of the needles. There was lots of ground up metal in there. The previous owner had evidently removed all the brake discs because all those were gone too. There weren't any shims either. A couple of bolts were missing and two of the existing bolts were sheared (see photo).
2. My front tires (1300 x 24) are a lot shorter than my rear tires (1400 x 24). See photo. Isn't this a no-no when it comes to four wheel drive vehicles? I thought that all four tires should have the same circumference; otherwise you put strain on the differentials. Any opinions here?
3. The U-joint that services this dismantled hub is bad (one of the arms of the joint has lost all its needle bearings).
4. My frame is cracked. See photo. I'll have to put on weld on this eventually.
5. I tried to dismantle the front carriage tilt cylinder, but I do not have a tool big enough to spin the end cap on the cylinder. I tried a 36 inch pipe wrench, but it was too small.

Here's my questions:

1. Any recommendations on where I could get a good deal on those wheel bearings? I could only get numbers off of the cup portion of the bearing - Both bearings are Timken. One cup is 37625. Other cup is JM822010.
2. How do you remove the bearing cone from the spindles? They are pressed on and there appears to be no way to get a pry bar underneath. Do I need to bring this to a machine shop to get it pressed off? Sorry if these are dumb questions!
3. Should I worry about my front tires being a lot smaller than the rears?
4. Does anyone know an aftermarket part number for the universal joint on the axle?
5. Speedpup, what tool did you use to spin off that end cap on the tilt cylinder?
Thanks J. Stewart

 

[joestewart]

Here are the photos of the cracked frame.

 

[Speedpup]

grove out the crack and weld it. Then grind it smooth and put a 3/8" or 1/2" angle with 4" legs. Put one leg down towards the ground and the other projecting horizontally towards the rear. If you look at later year machines that is what Lull did in later years. Look on machinerytrader,com at later model years.

used the zoom feature to look closer http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6092670

I had to do it on a 1980 844 I had. I would drop the angle down 3/8" below the top and weld a good bead. Then you can always put an angle from the angle up to the piston mount between the two bolts for more support. I can sketch it if my words don't make sense.

I used a large chain wrench on the cylinder end cap. Did you tap it for a while with the hammer to loosen it (patience) and some P B Blaster? Some heat may help as a last resort. You can also weld a chunk of metal on the cap's outer face and use it to tap with a decent size drill hammer.

I would say you need tires that match in size to prevent it from tearing itself up.

If you are missing all the brakes discs and the brake piston it will be $$$ .

The spur gears around the sun gear have needle bearing and with all the ground up stuff you have they can't be in good shape either.

I hate to say it but that machine needs tons of work. The seller really just hung it together to dump. There was a turn key 1995 in great shape and decent 4-5000 went for 7500 bucks. I think you could dump 500+ in parts into get the end of that axle going easy. If the brake piston is gone it's probably 250+.

 

[joestewart]

OK, thanks.

The brake piston is still there - haven't taken it out yet.

I haven't gotten to the point where I need to start using the ballpein hammer on the end of the cylinder. I need to purchase one of these chain wrenches. Speedpup, what size chain wrench did you use? Do you have a specific brand and model number?

Also, do you know how machininists remove those pressed on cone bearings, such as the one visible in the photo in the previous post? I would love to get those off so I can read the part numbers on the other side.

I guess the cracked frame is the least of my worries. I will address it when the time comes. It would be great if you could diagram what you have done and send me some photos of the repaired 844 that you did. I looked at the photos on machinery trader and I think I understand the repair. I have a friend thats an expert welder and will get him on it after I get past all these other nightmares.

I noticed in the assembly instructions for the hub that it never mentions greasing the wheel bearings. These bearings do take standard wheel bearing grease, don't they? I noticed that there was no grease left on the one in the photo above.

 

[Speedpup]

They take grease some machines had fitting look on the lube diagram to see. I can't even remember when I pulled the bearing on one it was like 1986 on the kin pins slightly different than yours.. I would just take it to a machine shop can't be much to remove. Bearing supplier can match them up with the numbers. You will need spur gear bearings also. Yes the welding is minor job compared to the others.

Wheel bearing grease is good. Did get the pin out of the front cylinder? Start now tapping it and putting B P Blaster on it.I got the chain wrench from MSC. http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/N2DRVSH?PACACHE=000000134168276

not sure which one I have but it is like those. some yu can add a piece of chain to. They are good but you can break them with enough pressure on the chain.

You really need to pull them all and inspect each wheel as none probably had much care before you end up with another wheel like that. I had a axle end go bad in 92 or 93 on my 1044 and it cost me over 3 grand in parts and I had a friend who welded and re-machined some of the parts or it would have been 5,000+ in parts way back then. It took me 8 hours with another person just to get the planetary apart when it got all balled up like yours with pieces of metal.

How is the oil in the other planataries did you drain it.

 

[joestewart]

Yeah, I finally got that pin out of the front tilt cylinder. It was pretty tight and it had worn a little "offset" in the center portion of the pin, which may have been hanging up as we were trying to pound it out with a huge sledge hammer. Now what I have looks like this (see photo). I tried to loosen that little set screw with a hand held Allen wrench. It wouldn't budge and I was afraid I would strip it. I will hunt for my 3/8 inch drive allen wrenches and see if I can loosen it.

I looked at the link that Speedpup gave for the chain wrenches. The largest capacity chain wrench listed is for 6 inch pipe and I believe that that particular cylinder exceeds six inches in diameter. I will have to add links to the chain? Where do you get the extra links? I'll have to measure the diameter of the cylinder this coming saturday to see how big of a chain wrench I need. Thanks for the link!

I'm planning on servicing all of the hubs and planetaries and brakes. This will cost a small fortune, I know, but at least I will know what I have when I'm done! I keep telling myself that this is all "for fun"!

I'm doing some research on how to best approach buying parts for the hubs and axles. The axle was made by Spicer, so an aftermarket supplier would be preferred over buying them directly from Lull? Or perhaps even buying them directly from Spicer? Is anyone aware of any axle shops that sell Spicer parts for off road axles online? Any other source appears preferable over Lull due to inflated pricing - is this rationale correct or are all the suppliers expensive when it comes to off road heavy duty axles?

Right now I have my machine with one tire off and sitting on wood blocks so I'm not able to check the fluid condition in the other planetaries. This brings up the subject of lubrication of the wheel bearings. I checked my lube chart and it does not mention the wheel bearings. Is it possible that the oil for the planetaries (the gear lubricant plus friction modifier) ALSO lubricates the wheel bearings?

I am uncertain as to who was responsible for allowing this machine to get into its current condition. The previous owner told me that they only owned it for three years. During that three year period, they must have performed zero maintenance, because the air filter was clogged with caked up dirt/dust, the hydraulic fluid was clogged, the hydraulic fluid contaminated with water, three (3) of the five (5) main hydraulic cylinders with moderate to severe hydraulic fluid leaks, transmission fluid critically low, popped out freeze plug and the condition of this hub as we are discussing. No wonder I got it for a good price!

Any literature on the Spicer PS-1350 axles greatly appreciated! Still looking for a scanned parts manual for the 644! I have the service manual for the 644 844 and 1044 on pdf and I can email it you!

 

[Speedpup]

get a torch and heat the set screw. Everything expands and it crushes the rust. Then use PB Blaster during the week and let it soak. I doubt anyone is giving parts away for these things try a google search for spicer parts.

post the cylinder cap removal in the general section for more input than this section.

http://www.spicerparts.com/axle/off_highway.asp

 

[Speedpup]

http://www.amazon.com/Ratcheting-Chain-Wrench-24-In/dp/B000I1R27K

 

[12valve]

I have the same model lull you do. It was misrepresented as needing a fuel pump when I bought it at an auction sight unseen. The injection pump is bad and there is water in the engine oil, I needed this lift to erect a steel building. I have purchased another lot to build on and I need a lift to move all the junk of the land. I may bite the bullet and go purchase a newer lift as I do not have the time or shop space (yet) to overhaul this one. Mine is about the same condition as Joestewarts. I'm into mine for 4000 If you need another one for parts. We might be able to arrange some shipping as well. I have a trailer to haul it on and my dad has the truck. It would be up to him to price the freight. If not I will still watch this thread as it is very useful, You guys are great with the info. I need to go and look to see if mine has that same crack in the frame. Thanks guys

 

[joestewart]

There's a used engine for $2500 and there is a remanned injection pump for $600 on the online auction.

Have you determined what caused the water to enter the oil? Was the oil milky or was it raw unmixed water sitting at the bottom of the oil pan? Perhaps it was rainwater that found its way in there? - Just trying to look at all possibilities.

Is there oil mixed up with the coolant in the radiator?

Are you sure that the injection pump is actually bad?

Have you priced out an injection pump rebuild? I had a roosa pump rebuilt for a different 4 cylinder deere engine at a local diesel shop - cost about $300.

I think you could still have a fine machine for a good price. Hold onto it and work on it when time allows, if you can.

I'm still working on my 644 - preparing to assemble the front tilt cylinder this weekend.

 

[12valve]

644 lull

Thanks for your help Joestewart. I will probably look into this machine more personal. I have been working overseas. I purchased it online and picked it up when I was home. I will probably try to rip into her when I get my building up. Maybe I'll get lucky. My friend had a mechanic from the John Deere dealership come and look at it, and said all that was bad. I appreciate the help. Your info and part numbers will help me as well.

 

[joestewart]

PM me your email address and I will send you the Lull 644 service manual, operators manual and the manual for the spicer axles.

I'm still hoping someone can scan their parts manual for the 644!

 

[12valve]

It would not let me PM you so here's my email wren36ch@yahoo.com. Thanks JoeStewart

 

[joestewart]

Right rear hub/planetary - REASSEMBLED!

Front tilt cylinder - REBUILT!

Frame tilt cylinder - REBUILT! - but for some reason, it barely works. If I take the wooden blocks out that are holding the machine in the level position, the whole machine tilts to one side and the leveling cylinder cannot get it back up again. Next thing I'm going to do is drain the hydraulic tank and clean the pick up screen - not sure if this is the problem, but its something I have to do anyway. Someone loaned me a hydraulic pressure gauge, so I will check pressure being delivered to the frame tilt cylinder also.

644 parts manual - SCANNED!

I pulled the machine out of the barn and set the boom up on top of a conex shipping container. Then I dropped the hoist cylinder down onto some tires - See photos - Need to rebuild this cylinder bad. Leaks hydraulic fluid all over the operator when boom is raised.

Removed rear driveshaft, since back tires are way taller than front tires. I will somehow have to find a couple of 13.00x24 tires for the rears (there's 14.00x24's on there now).

 

[Hammer & Nails]

Just happened to see this thread. Was wondering if you have any updates. Very enjoyable.

 

[12valve]

Joestewart I may be parting my lull out. Do you need any parts to get yours back together?