John Deere 555A won't move and no hydraulics

[rory381]

I recently bought a 555A crawler that had been used in a landfill for near scrap price. The folks selling it didn't know anything about it other than the muffler had been left off it for some time so the engine was stuck. Due to a lot of negativity I found when reading about the powershift transmission, I wanted to try to get it running and check the transmission before pouring a lot of money into the engine.

We got the engine freed up last weekend (thanks to Kroil) and with some new injectors I heard the engine run for the first time this past Saturday. The engine ran surprisingly well. The bad news though, is there is no hydraulics or transmission movement. It's like the engine is disconnected from the rest of the powertrain. After looking in the service manual and the parts breakdown, I'm guessing there is something wrong with the spider gear on the input side of the torque converter. But I've never owned or worked on a JD crawler before this one, and only know what I've read on the forums and in the manual.

It seems to me if the body of the torque converter was being turned then I would get some hydraulics or transmission pressure??? I guess the other possibility would be the pump drive gear on the back end of the converter could be stripped or broken somehow. Do both the transmission pump and loader hydraulic pump run off this one gear?

I would love to hear any suggestions or thoughts on what might be wrong.

Assuming it is something wrong with the converter (input side or pump drive gear), any suggestions on parts? I looked at the spider gear from John Deere and many of those parts are showing as not available. The pump drive gear shows available, but nearly what I paid for the loader. Will a good torque converter shop be able to get these parts if I have the converter built?

I'd like to get the old girl operating again, but I don't want to break the bank doing it...

Thanks a lot.

 

[lantraxco]

Probably pull the floor plates, clean, and pop the cover off the converter housing. Roll her over and see if the converter spins. I think the loader pump mounts down low on the left side of the converter, runs off it's own little countershaft gear. Is the transmission pressure gauge still there and if so does it wiggle at all?

As I recall (it's been many years) those drive spiders were a headache. The rubber blocks would wear out and then the ring and spider would destroy each other. Aluminum I think. Probably why she was sitting don't you think? Quick google search shows several places advertising those three items, so should be available. Easy peasey, all you have to do is pull the hardnose and pull the engine, lol.... sorry, it's really not that bad a job.

 

[rory381]

Thanks lantraxco. Getting a visual of the converter is a great idea I will do that next. The foot plates were missing when I picked the loader up so they saved me that trouble. The countershaft and location of the hydraulic pump you described match what I've seen on the machine and in the manuals. I don't have much faith in that old trans pressure gauge and the needle is broke off to a nub, but I didn't see it move at all...

Seems like somebody knew the engine was going to have to come out as practically all the bolts in the radiator nose were missing too... Yeah, seems when she laid down, it was probably with a thud.

Lets speculate a little. My whole point in working on this machine was to either get it going fairly cheap, or junk it out. I don't want to put $10,000 in a $3,000 machine. My goal in working on the engine was to get it running so I could check the transmission. The engine is running, but I'm now in basically the same place in regards to the transmission, I don't know squat about it's condition. Assuming the spider input is my current problem and I fix it, what are the chances the transmission is good?

One line of thinking goes like this... Machine was operational and they were using it, then converter input breaks and they find a sucker to take it off their hands... Under this scenario a glass half full person may think the transmission pump and clutches were ok. A skeptic would say "show me". Reckon which one is more likely to be right?

 

[lantraxco]

Looks like the good news is that the front section of the converter housing is supposed to be dry, so if the coupler did disintegrate at least it's not throughout the transmission oil system. There's a 3/4" pipe plug on the bottom, might see if you can reach that and pull it out as well, see if there's chunks of rubber and shiny metal pieces hanging about.

What I recall about the "triple nickel" was that back in the 90's when I worked for a Deere dealer, they were expensive to work on even then, but the owners absolutely loved these little guys. Basically comes down to what the rest of the machine looks like, if it's basically in good shape and the undercarriage is decent, I would go as far as replacing the coupler, IF that's what the problem is. Then loosen the drain on the powershift housing and see if you get any water out the bottom before you start stirring up the oil. If it comes to life, drain, pull and clean the suction strainer, clean oil and fresh filter, pressure checks... might surprise you, but on the other hand, it is old and has been sitting. Crap shoot but the value of a machine is in the work it will do for you, unless you were planning on reselling it. Hell if the engine runs decent and has good oil pressure all you need there is to give it an oil, filter, coolant service and it will probably last a few more years.

 

[overworked]

I rebuilt a 555b 4-5 years ago, I believe converter parts were obsolete then, had to get used pieces and put one together, nice little loader when done, we had more into it than it was worth x2.

 

[rory381]

lantraxco, all good info and suggestions, I really appreciate it.

I bought the loader because it really looked pretty good. Its got the 4in1 bucket and undercarriage looks to be in good shape. So I figured I didn't go too wrong at the $3100 it took to buy it. Throw in a couple hundred for fuel to haul it, new injectors, and a gallon of Kroil and I'm still in decent shape if I wanted to sell it off or part it out. Overall I'm not married to the machine, but I took a chance on it thinking if I could fix it for about another $3000 I'd have a decent machine at a pretty good price.

We've got a couple of Case 450s dozers and loaders, but I liked the extra couple thousand pounds that the 555 offered and the extra HP.

I was really tickled with how the engine ran after unsticking it. The oil on the trans dipstick looked good, but I ran out of time before I got a chance to pull the trans filter and check for metal or clutch debris. Speaking of the transmission filter, the shop manual says to take the canister housing off -- i.e. disconnect all the lines and unbolt from the bracket to change the filter. Is there enough room to unscrew the canister and leave the lines and bracket in place?

 

[rory381]

I rebuilt a 555b 4-5 years ago, I believe converter parts were obsolete then, had to get used pieces and put one together, nice little loader when done, we had more into it than it was worth x2.

Thanks overworked, I'm seeing the same availability issues for some of the hard parts, and no aftermarket atall. Even the little rubber chocks on the converter drive spider is $24 a piece X 20 will run into money pretty quick and not get too far... I'm going to keep diagnosing it, but the cost of parts is looking daunting right now. As good a machine as I'm sure you had when you got done, I don't want to have that much in it.

 

[rory381]

Ok, we worked on the 555A again today, made some progress and still got issues. I will try to give a chronological synopsis.

* Started by pulling the top off the torque converter housing. Once in there, saw right away that the torque converter spider gear drive on the input side was stripped and all the spider gear teeth were broken off. Some pieces on top, all the rest in the bottom of the housing. So engine definitely needed to be pulled to further assess damage. Also noticed very quickly that the top bolts holding the engine to the torque converter housing were loose and there was probably a 3/16 inch gap there... This very well could have helped disintegrate the drive coupling.

* Next up, I wanted to check the transmission filter for clutch disk or metal debris to get some idea about the state of the trans. Good news here as there was no sign of foreign debris in the filter or housing.

* Then after lunch we started gearing up to pull the engine. Needed to get some 3 inch square tubing and cut out a sidewall to prop up the loader out of the way. After about an hour on the bandsaw, tubing was cut to length and another little while with the torch and grinder the loader was propped up.

* Many of the bolts holding the nose cap were already missing...so it was moved out in short order. We disconnected all the wires, lines, etc off the engine before lunch, so then pretty soon we had the 50lbs of dirt, rats nests, and other debris dropped from the belly pan and scraped out of the frame rails. So just a couple hours after getting the loader propped up we had the engine out.

Up to this point, all was going pretty well. Once the engine was out of the way, started scraping out all the broken teeth and rubber bits from the converter housing. According to the manual and everything I thought I knew about the machine, the torque converter should slide out, but no such luck. We wiggled and jiggled, pried and twisted, and the thing never acted like it wanted to slide forward.

By this time it is getting almost dark (shadetree mechanics...), and it was time to clean up tools, etc. We kept thinking some of the aluminum debris was wedged in somehow blocking it and with no good grip or place to really get a good pry we took two nuts off the drive spider on front of the converter and put a small chain on the converter to try to pull with.



I was thinking this would surely work, put a big pry bar through the chain and pried against the cross member, but it didn't budge forward. So we went bigger. We put a timber across the tracks braced against the frame rails and hooked a farm jack in the chain and the other jaw over the timber. We stroked the jack and put a good bit of force on the chain pulling and it STILL didn't move. It is like there is something bolted up that we are missing, but multiple reviews of the manual give no help. We are sorta baffled... What are we missing???



P.S. I took a few pictures, tried to post two here...hopefully it works.

 

[lantraxco]

It's not a car, you need to get your hands on the right manual or at least some pages that has the correct instructions describing the disassembly. From looking at the parts pictures on line I can say with a fair bit of confidence STOP PULLING, you are going to destroy something expensive.

I am guessing that front hub comes off and underneath you will find a bolt, washer, and bearing assembly. Mind you this may not be the way to pull the converter off, I don't know for sure, but it looks to me like that's what's holding things together. I am willing to be corrected, but I advise erring on the side of caution here.

Hopefully somebody that's pulled one of these apart in recent memory will chime in here.

 

[rory381]

Thanks. Yes, I have the service manual, and have read over it quite a bit in relation to the torque converter. In fact after I posted this last night, I went back to the manual and took a fresh and clear look at it and finally understood part of what it was talking about in relation to removing the bolts connecting the "planet pinion carrier" to the trans housing. I thought about editing the post but decided to leave it in case someone else makes the same mistake.

To get the converter out you have to pull the control valve and housing cover then the bolts will be accessible from the top of the converter housing. Or at least that is how I understand it after rereading the manual.

 

[overworked]

Why do you want to pull converter? Replace the coupling and put the engine back in it, if the converter spins and you feel some resistance as you spin it, let it go. With the mentality of if it don't move ,pull harder, you will be buying more parts than you need.

 

[rory381]

I'm going to pull the converter while I'm in there to check it and make sure its not broke from the vibration or binding caused by the broke teeth and I am going to make sure I get all the broke drive coupling teeth out.

I never said I was going to buy the first part, so that last comment is useless. If when I pull the converter and its all to pieces inside, I won't be buying any parts and the machine will be scrapped. I already admitted to making a mistake after rereading the manual, what more do you want? I didn't break anything, so no harm no foul in my mind, but you do what you want.

I won't be posting any further.

 

[lantraxco]

Rory, I hate to tell you how many times I have kicked myself for doing exactly the sort of thing you were attempting there, and sadly it doesn't seem to get better as I near retirement age! I preach to the younger guys to not get in a hurry and never assume anything if it's the first time you've worked on one... then I go and bugger something up myself! Never too old to learn I guess. My comments were made in the spirit of "Don't do what I have done", I'm sorry if it seemed critical. You hang in there and soldier on, I for one would like to see what the innards look like and find out if the old girl comes back to life or not.

 

[rory381]

Rory, I hate to tell you how many times I have kicked myself for doing exactly the sort of thing you were attempting there, and sadly it doesn't seem to get better as I near retirement age! I preach to the younger guys to not get in a hurry and never assume anything if it's the first time you've worked on one... then I go and bugger something up myself! Never too old to learn I guess. My comments were made in the spirit of "Don't do what I have done", I'm sorry if it seemed critical. You hang in there and soldier on, I for one would like to see what the innards look like and find out if the old girl comes back to life or not.

Thanks lantraxco, I took all your comments as you meant them -- I think. I appreciate all the comments you made and good insight. That last post from Overworked I could have done without.

The thing is people on a message board can assume all they want, but it was only me and my Dad who was doing the prying, pulling and beating. And while this may be our first rodeo with a JD crawler, we've been working on all sorts of machines for a long time. This is certainly not to say we are perfect or never make mistakes, but only we know how hard we were putting out on it, not somebody reading it from 1000 miles away. And as I posted last night, we both felt like there was still some bolts somewhere we were missing...sure enough.

 

[overworked]

Rory, I wasn't trying to light your fuse, only trying to pass on some well earned advise. You found the broken coupler, those torque converters are expensive and delicate inside but a bad coupler won't hurt it, I was trying to say to put it together and you should be loading dirt in a couple days. The end of the riddle was the bad coupler, they parked it and the engine stuck, you got the engine running, you found the prize.overworked