JD 450c engine rust scale problems

[Randy88]

After decades of having the old style coolant in and even with a flush, will the new coolant break loose or "clean" the system out and cause problems from that, and if so how do you clean out the system after its been in a while, just dump and flush again and refill with new stuff?

 

[Randy88]

I hit enter before finishing the questions I've got, can you safely mix the different colored coolant that is ELC based or does the color of it matter, I've got a pink or reddish colored in my vehicles and some yellow colored in one machine, is it all the same as long as you don't dump in the green older glycol based stuff in?

 

[StanRAUUS]

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/antifreeze-radiator-products/antifreeze/

 

[Tinkerer]

ELC (aka Extended Life Coolant) is also known as silicate-free coolant. Generally it is pink or red in colour and tastes "bitter". This type of coolant does NOT contain glycol.
SCA (aka Supplemental Coolant Additive) is the additive normally added on a regular basis to glycol-based coolants. Often SCA is contained inside a coolant "filter" that gets changed every so often and the chemical is dissolved into the cooling system. These coolants are often (but not always) green or blue and taste "sweet".

After reading this thread I am convinced that I am going to quite using plain ole green ethylene-glycol antifreeze. A local retailer has Shell Ultra ELC antifreeze. But, now I am confused because I read the Shell technical data sheet and it says that it is a ethylene-glycol antifreeze. Here is a copy and paste from their data sheet.

Technical Data Sheet
Shell Lubricants Page 1 of 2 24/03/2009
Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50
Nitrited OAT Extended Life, heavy duty ethylene glycol engine coolant
pre-diluted 50/50 and ready to use
Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 is a nitrited extended life ethylene glycol
coolant for heavy duty diesel, gasoline, and natural gas powered engines. Shell HD Ultra
ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 contains OAT corrosion inhibitor technology plus nitrite
and molybdate. The product is free of amines, borates, nitrates, phosphates and silicates.
Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 provides excellent corrosion protection of
HD engines and cooling system components without the use of supplemental coolant
additives (SCAs). Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N 50/50 also provides protection of light
duty engines making it suitable for use in mixed fleet applications. Shell HD Ultra ELC
Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 is premixed and ready to use. It requires no further dilution.

If there is a non glycol ELC antifreeze then I would rather use the brand Nige has had a good experience with. I was very impressed and convinced with his photo comparison of the two cylinder sleeves.

 

[Nige]

Randy, I've never seen a system that was converted from SCA to ELC that has dumped massive amounts of scale, etc after the change. However there's always a first time. As I mentioned above generally on "problem" engines the change of coolant was always combined with an engine rebuild and an internal radiator descale, so large amounts of debris were not expected.

The ELC-type coolant are supposedly good for 12,000 hours or 6 years, so why would you want to throw a coolant away just because it is contaminated with a bit of scale..? Apart from that the coolant is not cheap. What we have for draining coolant is a "recovery unit", basically a 100-gallon tank on wheels into which we drain the coolant if we want to work on a machine. The unit has an air pump and a filter system on it so that the coolant gets filtered as it is pumped back into the system after whatever repairs we've done. Obviously it's easy for us because we only have one brand of coolant in every machine in our fleet.

According to most manufacturer's data sheets I've seen you can mix any similar product up to 25% of total system capacity with their product. Above 25% and they recommend (note not insist) to drain the whole lot and refill 100% with one product or the other. You have to take a bit of care because just to complicate the issue some ELC coolants contain nitrites (typically 500ppm) and others are nitrite-free. Mixing the 2 types of product is not recommended.

Tinkerer. In answer to your questions I have no experience with the particular Shell product you posted above so I can't advise how it would perform either good or bad.

Maybe I was not correct about ELC/OAT/low-silicate coolants not containing glycol in all cases. The Shell product meets Cat EC-1 spec (among others) and that is the same spec for the coolant used in the pictures of the cylinder liner on the previous page that looks like new but has 10,000+ operating hours on it. Therefore by my definition it is an ELC despite the fact it contains glycol.

My personal experience of Heavy Duty ELC/OAT/low-silicate coolants is basically 3 brands. Caterpillar ELC (available from your local friendly Cat Dealer), Mobil Delvac Heavy Duty 50/50 premix Extended Life Coolant, and an ELC known as Final Charge from a company called Old World Industries who may sound a bit like a Mon & Pop operation but in actual fact manufacture ELC for most of the major brand names including Mobil & Cat. Go figure ............ I would hazard a guess that the Shell product is most likely manufactured by OWI. http://www.oldworldind.com/heavy_duty_products.htm

Stan, out of all the Valvoline Products in your link the Zerex Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant (black container on the top line) is the Heavy-Duty diesel engine ELC.

 

[Randy88]

Nige, by definition of the antifreeze on stan's download its a "virgin ethylene glycol based antifreeze" with the 12,000 hour or 6 year protection, not to be smart but isn't that the same as a green antifreeze? I asked this same question to my local supplier and he said, good question, and didn't know the difference between that or the cheaper green stuff, and for the different colors he said put the same color back in and didn't know any of the differences between them all. He read the jugs and said it sounded like a fancy way to say the same thing, he called it double terms for the same base ingredients, not to be smart but whats right? Can you have a glycol based elc coolant? On the seminars I sat through this is the area where I got lost and wasn't given a real good explanation, can you clarify it for me?

 

[Nige]

Randy. Unfortunately I can't give you a definite answer, much though I would like to. Up to today I always thought that ELC/OAT/low-silicate coolants contained no glycol, then the details of the Shell product are posted and it contains glycol but is allegedly classed as an ELC.

One specification I know can only be met by an ELC is Caterpillar EC-1. If a data sheet of a coolant shows that the product meets Cat EC-1 specification then it has to be an ELC.

Of the products recently discussed on here the following all meet Cat EC-1 spec.

Valvoline Zerex Extended Life Anti-Freeze Coolant
Mobil Delvac Extended 50/50 Life Coolant
OWI Final Charge
Shell HD Ultra ELC Coolant-N Pre-Diluted 50/50 as mentioned above meets SOME of the Cat EC-1 specs but not all of them. That might have some relation to the fact it contains glycol but I am not sure of that.

I checked on some manufacturer's listings I have and NOT a single ONE of the green coloured coolants is listed as being an ELC. All are regarded as "conventional" coolants using SCA technology. Interestingly all of them are also regarded as Light Duty coolants, in other words not suitable for use in machines and equipment engines.

All the pink coloured coolants on the list are classed as Heavy Duty coolants but all of them still use SCA technology. There is one exception to this - Fleetguard Fleetcool that uses 'Hybrid OAT technology".

Without exception ELC-type coolants using "OAT technology" are all either yellow, orange, or red in colour.

 

[equip guy]

Thanks Nige, I am am using the john deere Cool gardII. I beleive that has the same properties you discuss.. Well all that fussing on the o rings and discovered that although the pistons, rings, and liners were all the right part numbers out of the box, the liner o rings I struggled with were from a 6 cylinder and not a 4cyl. I guess the guy at the factory grabbed from the wrong bin. New ones cam in yesterday, and finished up the engine part of the job. Now starting new rear sprockets, final drive seals/gaskets and new sprokets.

 

[willie59]

I'm not an authority on the subject, but to my knowledge pretty much all automotive antifreeze is either ethylene glycol or propylene glycol base, propylene glycol being the non-toxic type. I just don't understand why we have made antifreeze rocket surgery. Is it so hard to find something that works and make the stuff? Why do we have to have so many different versions that may or may not mix with each other. It appears somewhere along the line we have lost the "KISS" principle.

 

[equip guy]

For Randy and others, I have found it depends on manufac wether you can mix or not. In the case with Deere, they reccomend to flush, use the fleet gard Restor then, double rinse with fresh water, then fill. One of the things I use is the coolant test strips, which measure boil point, alkalinity, Ph, freeze point. Similar to pool water strips, the alkalinity/Ph is the big ones. That was the case with my customers machine That caused the liners to pit and rot it out. I use coolant conditioner from deere in the other machines. Also the 50/50 pre mix is the way to go.

 

[Tinkerer]

Nige, Thanks for taking the time to help sort out the facts on anti-freeze. It is a product we all use and, I think we should know as much as we can about it. I was able to find out a another interesting piece of info about OAT technology anti-freeze. I assume the statement is true. If it is true then I would not want to use it in my old machine because of the solder in the radiator. Here is a copy and paste of the statement

(OAT stands for Organic Acid Technology. Some organic acids can be used as corrosion inhibitors instead of the traditional inorganic inhibitors, like nitrites and silicates. OAT antifreeze should only be used in newer vehicles designed for its use. Organic acids actually attack the lead solder used in the radiators of older model vehicles.)

I have a lot of interest in this thread because my T/L/B has new cylinder liners and my radiator has a new core.

 

[Nige]

Tinkerer. You're correct. OAT-type coolant cannot be used in cooling systems containing lead - typically lead solder in a radiator.

I'm so used to wkirng with "modern" machinery with radiator cores that seal with rubber seals it's something that I had forgotten TBH.

 

[Randy88]

Alright, its getting confusing again for my simple mind, 90% of my engines are old enough to contain lead or solder of some sort. Automobiles have different needs than diesel engines do and now we toss in the discussion of lead and those components. So if I do the math that means I'll need about five different antifreezes for my trucks, equipment and vehicles and cars, and newer engines. I'll agree with willie59 on this one, what happened to idiot proof and simple, this is getting as bad as engine, transmission, final drives, hydraulic and other oils needed to have on hand, the lat time I counted those I had over 20 weights, grades, and types of oil to run in equipment and trucks, what ever happened to standardized stuff, it almost takes one full time person to keep track of all this stuff for me so I don't put the wrong stuff in the wrong machine.

So where does oat technology come in for antifreeze? what color is that and how does it compare to the newer yellow antifreeze we've been talking about? Seriously I'm lost with all the abbreviations and I can't be the only one who is reading this thread that's confused. Please put up some sort of "cheat" sheet to simplify this stuff for us simpletons. Thanks in advance.

 

[Tinkerer]

Like Wille59 stated why can't antifreeze mfrs. KISS. I guess the color of antifreeze doesn't really accurately indicate what you have according to the Filter Manufacturers Council. Here is part of one of their service bulletins in regards to the color of antifreeze.

Technical Service Bulletin 05-2R1 / The Color Of Antifreeze
Organic Acid Technology (OAT) was the first LLC/ extended life coolant introduced in North America in 1994. OAT can be either EG or PG but is mostly EG based. Its first dye colors were orange and red. These dye colors are still used by General Motors and Caterpillar. Green, pink and blue have been added to the list of available OAT antifreezes. It is recommended that OAT not be mixed with any other antifreeze technology. The normal OAT antifreeze sevice life is 150,000 miles.

If anyone would like to read the bulletin in depth here is the web link. http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/05-2R1.pdf
Randy88; If I interpret the information in the bulletin correctly the different types of antifreeze can be mixed. But apparently it shortens the life of the ELC stuff. If anyone reads the bulletin I would like to read your thoughts on it.

 

[Nige]

I will try to find the list I have but there is no guarantee it is 100% complete or 100% current. However to summarize what I remember from that list ......... I'll use SCA to define what I would call "conventional" coolants and ELC to describe coolants that use OAT.

Green dye generally signifies an SCA-type Light duty antifreeze. The type of product you would use in your car, or pickup truck.

Yellow dye generally signifies an SCA-type Heavy Duty antifreeze. This type of product you would use in on on-highway diesel engine or an earthmoving machine.

Orange & Red dyes generally signify ELC-type antifreeze/coolant. This type of product could be used in both light & heavy vehicles & earthmoving machines.

There are also pink & blue colours, but I'd be lying if I said I could remember 100% what group they fall into. I'll double check on Monday & post again.

 

[Randy88]

Thanks guys, nige, you did a good job of a simple easy to understand format that makes sense.

 

[Bob Queberg]

Hello Guys,
It appears(sounds like) that this engine may have been run with straight water during some time in it's life. My brother had purchased a Farmall Super WD-9 tractor that had been used for plowing, and fitting ground in the spring, or fall, and then drained for the winter. He tore it down, because of a cracked liner. The block, head, and everything that had been wet, was coated with a thick coating of iron and lime scale. The radiator went to a shop for a hot tank cleaning. A pint of muriatic acid, added to a partial fill of water started to boil the iron back to a satiny silver finish. Grease all of the machined faces to prevent an acid corrosion. This process might take 2-3 fills to complete the process. As the foam subsides, add more water. Let it cook for several hours, then drain, rinse with clear water. Repeat the cycle untill you like the color. The biggest challenge is to get the loose scale and "mud" out of the block etc. Muriatic acid is a dilute form of hydrochloric acid. As a toolmaker, I had used it on many occasions to clean the cooling lines of plastic molds.
The word acid scares many people, but if adequate safety precautions are taken, and the MSDS instructions are followed, this can be a relatively safe venture.
Regards,
Bob

 

[Nige]

My apologies for not following up on my chart as promised above ........ here it is. This list may not contain all possible brands but it does appear to include all the major ones at least.

Not sure if it's 100% readable but if not PM me and I'll e-mail a full-size copy.