JD 410 Backhoe Clutch Problem

[OldandWorn]

Hi,

I just bought a late 70's early 80's 410 John Deere and I'm having a problem with the clutches. I'm being helped in another forum but I don't want to wear out my welcome with too many questions.

My original question was about the dry friction clutch being locked up and others say this is normal because no one usually uses this clutch.

My question is, what could be locked up inside? I have determined the shaft that goes into the bell housing is free so I'm thinking it must be the throwout bearing or pressure plate. Also, is there any chance that the clutch will free up on its own from usage.?

Just to clarify, the fork, throwout bearing, and pressure plate won't budge. It's not like the plates are stuck together from non-use and I can unstick them by holding the clutch pedal down. The clutch pedal won't go down.

This hoe also has a hydraulic shuttle shift and I am told that this is all I need. However, the hydraulic clutches don't seem to be releasing all the way, especially when cold, and It's almost impossible to get the hoe in any gear without major gear grindage. Especially from a standstill.

If I can't get the dry friction clutch to work without splitting the machine, can I somehow adjust the hydraulic clutchpacks to release more completely so I can shift without grinding my gears up?

I also want to change the hydraulic fluid and engine oil but can't find any info in regards to weight and type. I do know the quantities and the machine is a 4 cylinder diesel.

Also, any odd problems with this machine that I should be aware of? The machine is nice and tight and has no leaks.

Thanks for your help

 

[Steve Frazier]

I had the same machine, mine was an '81. I had the opposite problem, the clutch would not release. On mine it was the pedal itself, I removed it from its pivot shaft and polished the inside of the pedal and the shaft. I don't recall if there was a grease fitting on the pedal or not, if not I'm sure I added one to keep it greased for the future.

I bought my hydro oil at the JD dealer, for motor oil any good grade 15W-40 diesel rated oil is good for summer use, you'll want to go lighter for winter or have a block heater.

One nagging problem I had was fuel gelling. No matter how I treated the fuel or how often I changed the filter the machine would lock up under 25 degrees. I had to tow it home on one occasion. I finally drained the tank and lines and flushed them with high pressure water and I never had another problem.

I had the input shaft to the tranny break on mine, a $200+ part and the machine had to be split to install. It still was a good machine, I bought it used to do the excavation in building my home. I sold it for $3000 more than I paid for it ten years later, lol!

 

[OldandWorn]

Does anyone know what could be locked up inside the bellhousing for the dry friction clutch? Any chance that it will start working again if I use the machine or will the tractor need to be split to fix this problem?

Thanks!

 

[IH 3500A]

Does the clutch peddle feel like it is attached to something? Are all the linkages moving / adjusted? Are there any access ports to view the clutch housing? ( Perhaps pulling the starter would help view )


A stuck clutch is a common problem when a car / truck sits for a extended time. The flywheel rusts making the friction disc stick to it. The fix is to warm the motor in neutral ( so it starts easily ) , shut off engine , select a forward gear , depress clutch , start engine , hold clutch in and press brakes while feeding throttle. It might take a time or two, but the disc will come free. In the case of a shuttle shift, fully engage the shuttle, slipping it to keep the motor going will cause a failure.

Being tractor brakes probably aren't the strongest thing in the world, slowly driving in to a dirt pile might be better. Shock loads really don't help.

Now, if something breaks on the tractor while doing what is a pretty normal dirt push, things were weak to start with.

Something else, if the clutch does not break free after a couple of attempts, you may have a clutch disc that lost friction material and it is wedged against the cover keeping things driving.

 

[OldandWorn]

I like all of your suggestions IH but I'm not sure if they would apply to this problem. In my original post I describe a problem where the lever going into the bell housing won't even move, like something inside it locked up.

I would think if the friction disc is rusted to the flywheel from lack of use at least the linkage would move and release the spring pressure in the pressure plate. It's like the throwout bearing or pressure plate is seized up, preventing any movement at all.

I guess I'm looking for a person who has come across and fixed this problem on a JD410 and can tell me what was stuck inside so I can better understand the possibility of fixing it without splitting the tractor.

I'm afraid of just "forcing" the lever because it might get the hoe in a state where it won't move anymore and I would have to split the tractor. The machine is deep in the woods and I don't have the tools and lifts needed to do any major repairs.

Also, If I can figure out why the hydraulic clutches are dragging slightly I wouldn't even need the dry friction clutch which is probably why it got locked up in the first place (from non-use). Still though, it's a new machine to me and I would like to have everything working.

 

[OldandWorn]

Thanks for your input Steve, my pedal is working freely. I'm going to bite the bullet and buy the JD Hygard also. I hate to think there is someone out there selling the exact same oil at half the price though:Banghead

Inrresting about the fuel gelling. It's been pretty warm so far and I will look out for that when it gets colder. I wonder if it was water in the fuel freezing instead of the fuel gelling?

I reguards to your input shaft. I suppose it is possible that mine could be twisted and has seized the throwout bearing?

It sounds like we both bought a hoe for the same reason. I'm building my retirement home on raw land and I have a lot of future work for this machine.

 

[Phil]

Just some thoughts. I had a JD 310A years ago and did some work on the shuttle and disconnect clutch while the engine was out. I'm not sure but as I recall the clutch was there just to allow the operator to change gears on that early model. The drag between clutch plates, when in neutral, just won't allow this especially when cold. Again, I can't recall my facts but maybe the previous owner just left it in first gear all the time and started it up with the shuttle in neutral?

You may have to pull the engine if all else fails. But since it's a direct drive machine you might be able to free it up, but you will have to get the throw-out bearing to apply pressure on the clutch assembly first. Phil

 

[JD750B]

So to make sure I understand. The clutch lever is moving freely, but the control arm to the clutch itself will not move. Is that correct? How much pressure have you acually used? Switch to the hyguard and that will help some on the dragging clutches, but it is not unusual to have that drag until the oil warms up a little. That is the very reason for the dry clutch. To help start the engine in cold weather without the transmission drag. Start it with the shuttle in neutral and transmission in gear. If the unit has not been used in a while a little use will help.

 

[OldandWorn]

I'm not sure but as I recall the clutch was there just to allow the operator to change gears on that early model. The drag between clutch plates, when in neutral, just won't allow this especially when cold.

Yes, that is my problem, getting it in gear or shifting when moving, especially when cold.

This machine has a starter motor lockout that prevents it from cranking unless the left lever is in park which of course is also neutral. I'm sure the sensor wire will be easy to locate and disable so I could start it in gear but that would be my last resort.

 

[bill onthehill]

If you go to the John Deere website and register and select a local dealer you will be able to access the parts layout for your machine. This will give you an idea of what the innards look like and some possible solutions. This is the same basic drive setup as my 401c and the old 310 used. You most likely have rust on the splined shaft that the clutch drives on. Could also be the pressure plate is froze and rusted. I would try holding pressure on it and rocking forward/reverse while increasing the force on the clutch pedal. At this point anything you do is better than having to split the machine. I will try to find some previous posts about clutch problems.

 

[OldandWorn]

So to make sure I understand. The clutch lever is moving freely, but the control arm to the clutch itself will not move. Is that correct? How much pressure have you acually used? Switch to the hyguard and that will help some on the dragging clutches, but it is not unusual to have that drag until the oil warms up a little. That is the very reason for the dry clutch. To help start the engine in cold weather without the transmission drag. Start it with the shuttle in neutral and transmission in gear. If the unit has not been used in a while a little use will help.

Yes and no answer for the clutch pedal moving freely. It is actually sort of a 2 stage clutch. The first part of the throw places the hydraulic clutches in neutral and the last 6 inches of travel to the floor is supposed to disengage the dry automotive type friction clutch. The dry clutch is my problem and the pedal stops 6 inches from the floor and the linkage will just flex if I try to push harder.

I got under the machine and disconnected the linkage going to the dry friction clutch. I placed a very large crecent wrench directly on the lever going into the bell housing but it won't budge at all. I do know that the lever itself is free because I can move it slightly by hand (.020) and I can hear a tapping noise deep inside the bell housing. I'm assuming the tapping noise it the release fork hitting the throwout bearing. I think either the throwout bearing or pressure plate is locked up for some reason.

In my answer to Phil, the machine has a lockout and can't be started in gear.

BTW, I'm leaving for my property and will be back late Monday. Thanks to all and I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving!!

 

[bill onthehill]

Bumped the other thread cause I don't know how to link to it.

 

[OldandWorn]

If you go to the John Deere website and register and select a local dealer you will be able to access the parts layout for your machine. This will give you an idea of what the innards look like and some possible solutions. This is the same basic drive setup as my 401c and the old 310 used. You most likely have rust on the splined shaft that the clutch drives on. Could also be the pressure plate is froze and rusted. I would try holding pressure on it and rocking forward/reverse while increasing the force on the clutch pedal. At this point anything you do is better than having to split the machine. I will try to find some previous posts about clutch problems.

Thanks Bill, I was able to download complete maintance and parts manuals for the military version of this machine but I would like the standard version better.

I actually hope it is rust because there would be some hope of it eventually breaking free. What bothers me is what Steve mentioned about his input shaft breaking. I suppose mine could be twisted which could lock things up inside.

I haven't pulled the floor up yet but looking under the machine and at the parts diaghrams it seems there is no way to look inside and see what is going on.

 

[OldandWorn]

Bumped the other thread cause I don't know how to link to it.

Thanks

 

[Wrench_one]

Sounds like the throw out bearing is sieze on the shaft. I have been there before. You can drop the transaxle out just as easy as pull the motor. Good luck

 

[OldandWorn]

Sounds like the throw out bearing is sieze on the shaft. I have been there before. You can drop the transaxle out just as easy as pull the motor. Good luck

Thanks for the info Wrench. From your experience, do you think there is any chance of it breaking loose on its own? Was it stuck because of rust?

I wonder if I could find a bolt hole or small opening that would allow me to use a thin tube to spray something on the shaft/bearing.

I know it's a slim chance but anything is better than splitting the tractor when I don't have any way of supporting the halves.

 

[brute34]

I have a 1980 id 410 and when trying to push a pile it wont even spin the tires over but the rest of the hoe works good

 

[Deon]

I'm not sure what you mean by the id. I use to own a 1981 410. It was a standard transmission 4 speed with H & L range for 8 speeds forward and reverse and shuttle shift so you can go from reverse to forward without clutching. It would spin the wheels or the motor would stall. There should not be any slippage on that machine.

 

[brute34]

I mean like trying to push a pile or dirt it will just barely go into it and then just stop and not even stall out it wont even go up a small incline in first gear to the floor it will go half way up and just stop

 

[willie59]

Is it a 410 or a 410B?

If just a 410, and engine doesn't loose any revs when machine is under drive load, but slows down to nothing, it could be flywheel clutch is either out of adjustment or is smoked completely. Or it could be a problem with fwd/rev clutch packs, different components than flywheel clutch.

If it's a 410B, I don't think they used a flywheel clutch, only fwd/rev clutch packs.