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IHI 28N 2 Speed Solenoid Problem

jeh1995

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Jan 23, 2011
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10
Location
Gulfport Mississippi
My IHI 28N will not travel "fast". The foot switch is working, One side connects to ground and the other side connects to 12V via the solenoid. 12V is getting through the solenoid and is present at the switch. I can't feel any movement in the solenoid when I put power to it. The tred tension is set correctly also so the motors are not over loaded. There is plenty of hydraulic fluid. So... The solenoid is mounted on the hydraulic pump. Can it be removed/replaced without dumping a bunch of fluid? Am I missing something obvious?:confused:
 

willie59

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I'm not familiar with the 28N hydraulic circuits, but are you certain the 2 speed drive solenoid is mounted on the pump? On most excavators, high speed drive is done at the drive motors. If you have 4 hoses going to each drive motor, 2 large hoses and 2 smaller hoses, chances are the 2 speed is achieved at the drive motors.
 

jeh1995

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Jan 23, 2011
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Gulfport Mississippi
The solenoid is on the pump and it opens up a 2nd port to the drive motors. I have the parts manual and users manual for the system and I was able to track this thing down that far. If I am reading the hydraulic schematic correctly there are indeed four hoses for each drive motor. The 2 speed control was intermittent for a while but appears to have competely died now. So... I'm trying to figure out if it is electrical (lazy solenoid) or hydraulic. Any ideas?
 

willie59

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Again, I don't know your machine, but I doubt the two speed is using pressure from the main pump. It most likely uses pressure from the pilot system which supplies control pressure to your joysticks as well. If you have identified which solenoid controls the two speed drive, have you checked the wiring at the solenoid for positive voltage and good ground? If that's good, you can remove the solenoid valve to check it a little better. You're going to spill a little oil, but is should be managable. If you don't have a plug of some sort to stick in the hole, roll up some thin plastic sheet into a tight ball and cram it in the hole, that will at least slow down leakage.

With most solenoid valves, after you have removed them, you can connect power and ground to the terminals and hear a distinct click, sometimes you can even see the movement of the valve port spool. Maybe you'll have some luck sorting through your problem. :)
 

finaldrive

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Jan 23, 2009
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Southern California
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ATCO you are spot on.
This machine takes a Kayaba brand drive. It is a MAG-18V series.
The 2 speed is operated by pilot pressure.
What you need to do is to make sure it is not bypassing through the motor and returning via the case drain.
You require pressure to shift the piston inside the motor and change the angle of the swash plate.
Check the case drain on the motor when you engage the 2 speed.
If the motor is bypassing internally, this could be the culprit.
Gotta love the electrical and hydraulic problems...
I mention this since I cannot recall a problem such as this being electrical.
Intermittent sounds like losing pressure, not an electrical issue.
 

strott

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Jan 10, 2009
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Swindon, United Kingdom
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So what/how does the swash plate alter the speed of the track motor?

But basically what your saying is that 2 speed drive is activated by moving the swash plate in the track motor as opposed to pumping more oil to the track motor from the hydraulics.....
 

finaldrive

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So what/how does the swash plate alter the speed of the track motor?

2 speed drive is activated by moving the swash plate in the track motor as opposed to pumping more oil to the track motor from the hydraulics.....

Yes.
The swash plate is wedge shaped. The angle of the wedge is changed when shifted into high or low speed.
Same oil, different displacement created by different angle.
 

willie59

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So what/how does the swash plate alter the speed of the track motor?

But basically what your saying is that 2 speed drive is activated by moving the swash plate in the track motor as opposed to pumping more oil to the track motor from the hydraulics.....


Yep, just like finaldrive stated; speed is changed at the motor. It's a variable displacement motor. Works just like a variable displacement (hydrostat) pump, just in reverse. When you change the angle of the swash plate in the motor, it changes the speed of the output shaft with no change in gpm/lpm flow to the motor. ;)
 

jeh1995

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Jan 23, 2011
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Gulfport Mississippi
Number one I've got to say THANKS! Being able to tap into your knowledge and experience is a great thing. I'll have to dig into the parts manual to understand how to check the motor bypass (I'd really rather it be the solenoid!). I hope to get on this over the weekend. Thanks for all the help so far.
 

willie59

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Checking the internal leakage of the drive motors isn't difficult, have to have a couple of things though to keep it from being a messy job. There are two small lines going to each drive motor. One is for the high speed drive, the other is the motor case drain. You have to deterimine which line is the case drain and which one is the high speed drive control line.

First of all, be very cautious performing these procedures. The will require the engine running and the safety lever in the operate position while working on the machine.

Once you've determined which line is which, you remove the case drain line from a drive motor, and you'll need the proper plug fitting to block the disconnected line, else you'll have a constant flow of oil from the line. Find some type of hose that will fit over case drain fitting still on drive motor and send the hose to a bucket or drain pan. Swing digging bucket over the track that you're testing and use the boom/bucket to lift that track off the ground. Operate the drive for that side and monitor how much oil comes out of the case drain fitting. I can't remember the acceptable leakage amount, but I'd say if you're getting more than a 1/2 gal to 1 gal per minute out of that drain, may have a failed drive motor. Check motor on other track in same manner.

You can also test if high speed drive is getting pressure at the drive motor by removing the line that connects to the high speed control fitting on the motor and send that line to a drain pan. Start engine and place safety lever in operate position, then select high speed drive. This should activate solenoid at the pump and make oil pressure come out of the line you have placed in the drain pan.
 

coalrulz

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Generally pump/motor case drain tests are perfromed at top end of system pressures, hydraulic motor stalled or pump dead headed. Case drain tests give good indication of internal, rotating seal surfaces and pump/motor conditions. If done at lower pressures case drain tests become far less useful.
 

willie59

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Generally pump/motor case drain tests are perfromed at top end of system pressures, hydraulic motor stalled or pump dead headed. Case drain tests give good indication of internal, rotating seal surfaces and pump/motor conditions. If done at lower pressures case drain tests become far less useful.


I'll agree with that. ;)
 

Palmer78

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Sep 14, 2008
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Valley Springs, CA
Jeh1995, let us know what you come up with if you get it fixed. I have a IHI 35N that's doing the same thing. I'll hold my foot on the high speed pedal and it will kick in sometimes and sometimes it won't. I never gave it much thought because I really don't need to use the high speed and everything else works great. Wouldn't mind getting it working right though.
 

jeh1995

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Jan 23, 2011
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Gulfport Mississippi
Weekend Follow-up.

I loosened the high speed control oil pressure lines on both drive motors to see of oil pressure was present of either side. According to the manuals I should have seen about 145PSI when the pedal was pressed. I had NOTHING different when the pedal was pressed. So... I checked a couple of other things. The control shutoff is working intermittently also as it turns out, about 50% of the time. The two solenoids share a port (P4) off the pump. That port has an internal oil filter/screen and a relief valve. My current theory is that either the screen is blocked with crap or the relief valve has failed.

If I remove the relief valve I have to screw in some sort of plug in order to not dump the oil, right? Do you guys agree that, with no oil pressure at the drive motors, I need to look "upstream" at the solenoids, relief valve and internal filter (IHI Part 0751 46 03)? Thanks again for your help. I really appreciate it. - John
 

willie59

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When you said "the control shutoff is working intermittently also...", are you referring to the safety lever lock system that disables the joysticks?
 

willie59

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Ok, safety lockout acts up at times as well. I can't say for certain as I don't know your machine, but I'd wager you safety lever is electrical instead of operating a hydraulic diverter valve like on larger excavators. I'm thinking you have an electrical problem, and the safety lever and two speed may share an electric supply circuit. Machines use connectors throughout the harness, I'd bet you have a connector causing a break in the electrical supply or something like that. Unless you have a wiring diragram it would be hard to follow how the power supply to the circuit is wired on the machine.

What I would do though, just to get a feel of what to do, is take the floor plate out so you can access the two wires going to the switch on the 2 speed pedal. Probe into a connector or terminal on the power supply to the foot switch with a test light. Operate the machine, engaging/disengaging the 2 speed while driving the machine, monitor the test light to see if the power ever goes out when 2 speed acts up.

If light stays on, move test light to wire sending power to pump solenoid from switch. Test wiring related to 2 speed and lockout lever with the test light while operating the machine.
 

jeh1995

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Jan 23, 2011
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Location
Gulfport Mississippi
Fixed!

:)
Thanks for all the help and suggestions. All the problems were electrical. The safety shut off electrical circuit was not working due to crudded-up contacts at the switch in the arm console. Easy fix - clean & lube.

The travel was a bit more sneaky. It was a accumulation of poor contacts. The solenoids have an internal resistance of about 12 ohms. The rest of my electrical path, from the 12VDC supplied to the solenoid, through the foot switch and to ground had a resistance of about 60 ohms - can't work that way. I cleaned and protected (silicon grease) each connection from the solenoids to ground.

All fixed! Thanks again!
 

willie59

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Good to hear you got it sorted out.

BTW, I just now noticed you're in Gulfport Mississippi, you're going to be dealing with salt water corrosion with many components of your machine, really bad for electrical connections.
 
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