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Have a look at the wheel loader we are selling

sino-john

Active Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Messages
31
Location
China
Occupation
international trade
I say if it's a knock off or an imitation don't buy it. We're shooting ourselves in the foot by supporting crooks.
Oh, no, buddy, you know that the first hydraulic loader was created in 1951, by "Poclain" in France. As your logic, those famous brands like CAT are imitations of it. We produce equipment according to the market demands, people like those cheap but good quality products, that's the market! Just like many cellphones adopt the technology of Iphone, to meet people's needs. Now, you can appeal all the people of US to buy Iphone only, reject those other cellphone brands which use the same screen of Iphone, for they are imitation.
 

digger242j

Administrator
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
6,654
Location
Southwestern PA
Occupation
Self employed excavator
I say if it's a knock off or an imitation don't buy it. We're shooting ourselves in the foot by supporting crooks.

Oh, no, buddy, you know that the first hydraulic loader was created in 1951, by "Poclain" in France. As your logic, those famous brands like CAT are imitations of it. We produce equipment according to the market demands, people like those cheap but good quality products, that's the market! Just like many cellphones adopt the technology of Iphone, to meet people's needs. Now, you can appeal all the people of US to buy Iphone only, reject those other cellphone brands which use the same screen of Iphone, for they are imitation.

Indeed, the case could be made that any wheel loader is an "imitation" of the original one, but as they say, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." I don't know anything about the technology in Iphones, and what's patented in them and what's not.

If someone manufactures something, and labels it with the name of another manufacturer with the intent to deceive, that's a knock-off. We've all seen "Rolex" watches for $20. Garments with the name of professional sports teams are also an extremely popular knock-off item, and if the manufacturer hasn't paid the licensing fee to the team, that is indeed criminal. That doesn't mean some people won't still buy them.

We've all heard stories though, that some Chinese manufacturers, include technology in their products that is protected by patent laws, and that they fail to properly license that technology and pay the owners of the patents. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I'm sure that's what Abscraperguy was referring to when he mentioned "crooks".
 

EURO CAT

Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
10
Location
England's Green & Pleasant Land
Oh, no, buddy, you know that the first hydraulic loader was created in 1951, by "Poclain" in France. As your logic, those famous brands like CAT are imitations of it. We produce equipment according to the market demands, people like those cheap but good quality products, that's the market! Just like many cellphones adopt the technology of Iphone, to meet people's needs. Now, you can appeal all the people of US to buy Iphone only, reject those other cellphone brands which use the same screen of Iphone, for they are imitation.

there is a difference between evolving a product to meet customer needs and requirements, but blatant copying and breaking international patents and copying intellectual property is a criminal offence. I was at the last Bauma in Germany when one Chinese manufacturer was served with notice by JCB and a Germany law Firm (who were escorted by the police) and had to remove machine from the stand and were band from selling said products in the EU for "copying" and using JCB patented intellectual property. This was so obvious it was funny but it is breaking the law the problem is many Chinese manufacturers don't see a problem with it? why?
 

Hendrik

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2009
Messages
1,232
Location
Adelaide South Australia
This was so obvious it was funny but it is breaking the law the problem is many Chinese manufacturers don't see a problem with it? why?
I am not 100% up to speed on international patent laws and treaties but it seems that China is a signatory to the them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_patent_treaties
However the question is what is patented, copyrighted and has registered designs (the way something looks, for example you cannot patent a wheel loader as such but you can register the design of it, so that another manufacturer cannot make an exact copy).
So while ChengChong might not be breaching patents, they may be breaching registered designs. However they may make subtle design changes to side step these laws.
I guess the reason that Chinese manufactures don't see a problem with copying is that the rules are not that well enforced in China and they are trying to get up to speed/catch up with western manufacturing at a rate of knots. Japan did the same thing after WW2, lots of stuff made in the 50's was copied by Japan and eventually they learnt to make them better that the original manufacturer (a good example of this is British bikes). Why did Japan copy rather than design their own? Because they needed a product quick and R and D takes time and expertise, which Japan did not have in post WW2, also they where able to produce products that people in the west where familiar with. Which is perhaps one of the reasons Chinese equipment manufacturers are copying western equipment. People look at a Chinese loader and because it looks similar to a Cat or JD, they will be more willing to buy it, thinking they are getting Cat/JD quality at a bargain price.
Obviously this is not the case, long after the sweet taste of low price is forgotten, the bitter after taste of low quality remains (or something along those lines).
People need to factor in costs of breakdowns when they make a machinery purchase decision, no good buying a machine at half the price if it spends half it's working life sitting in the workshop, waiting for parts which may never turn up.
 

Alberta

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
82
Location
alberta
Occupation
maintenance supervisor
After the experience I've had with the cheap Chinese parts being used by some North American manufacturers ( e.g. : CTD hubs uses made in china bearings, that failed within 500 hrs), I would steer far, far away from this kind of deal...Not saying that everything made in China is garbage but, you'd have a hard time to convince me that they can make a high quality product.
And yes, that picture is doctored....so much for honesty eh !
 

sino-john

Active Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Messages
31
Location
China
Occupation
international trade
After the experience I've had with the cheap Chinese parts being used by some North American manufacturers ( e.g. : CTD hubs uses made in china bearings, that failed within 500 hrs), I would steer far, far away from this kind of deal...Not saying that everything made in China is garbage but, you'd have a hard time to convince me that they can make a high quality product.
And yes, that picture is doctored....so much for honesty eh !
I have to admit that many products that made in China are not good as those made in western countries, especially in the field of High-tech. Some customers prefer to purchase those products made in Japan or US, we hope our own products can be made well, but what real matters is the technology, that is the choke point of "made-in-china" . China introduced some so called "new technology" from developed countries, but many real high-tech are created by our self, that's a long and hard way, but the undoubted realistic is that we are doing better and better.
As to the Picture, I had mention that I did some change in the #7. It is you ignored that.
 

>HevyIndsMFGng<

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
45
Location
Oshkosh, Wis
Occupation
Mechanic/Student
I am not 100% up to speed on international patent laws and treaties but it seems that China is a signatory to the them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_patent_treaties
However the question is what is patented, copyrighted and has registered designs (the way something looks, for example you cannot patent a wheel loader as such but you can register the design of it, so that another manufacturer cannot make an exact copy).
So while ChengChong might not be breaching patents, they may be breaching registered designs. However they may make subtle design changes to side step these laws.
I guess the reason that Chinese manufactures don't see a problem with copying is that the rules are not that well enforced in China and they are trying to get up to speed/catch up with western manufacturing at a rate of knots. Japan did the same thing after WW2, lots of stuff made in the 50's was copied by Japan and eventually they learnt to make them better that the original manufacturer (a good example of this is British bikes). Why did Japan copy rather than design their own? Because they needed a product quick and R and D takes time and expertise, which Japan did not have in post WW2, also they where able to produce products that people in the west where familiar with. Which is perhaps one of the reasons Chinese equipment manufacturers are copying western equipment. People look at a Chinese loader and because it looks similar to a Cat or JD, they will be more willing to buy it, thinking they are getting Cat/JD quality at a bargain price.
Obviously this is not the case, long after the sweet taste of low price is forgotten, the bitter after taste of low quality remains (or something along those lines).
People need to factor in costs of breakdowns when they make a machinery purchase decision, no good buying a machine at half the price if it spends half it's working life sitting in the workshop, waiting for parts which may never turn up.

Its funny you mentioned the whole British bikes thing there Hendrik. My post might be a bit off topic but the Japanese did literally STEAL the motorcycle designs. Their first major theft wasn't off a British bike though, it was off a very ingenuitive East German bike made by motorcycle manufacturer MZ and lead engineer Walter Kaaden who developed a two-stroke engine for motorcycle racing. The motorcycle was way ahead of its time and dominated the races; then in the 1960s some Japanese paid off the lead racer who ran his bike off the track into their waiting arms- the Japanese manufacturer that did this was Suzuki.
 
Last edited:

sino-john

Active Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Messages
31
Location
China
Occupation
international trade
there is a difference between evolving a product to meet customer needs and requirements, but blatant copying and breaking international patents and copying intellectual property is a criminal offence. I was at the last Bauma in Germany when one Chinese manufacturer was served with notice by JCB and a Germany law Firm (who were escorted by the police) and had to remove machine from the stand and were band from selling said products in the EU for "copying" and using JCB patented intellectual property. This was so obvious it was funny but it is breaking the law the problem is many Chinese manufacturers don't see a problem with it? why?

I don't know whether your story is true or not, but if that is true, that manufacture is deserve to be punished. The Chinese government is beating the "copy" severely, instead of what you said
This was so obvious it was funny but it is breaking the law the problem is many Chinese manufacturers don't see a problem with it? why?
. But here, I have to say that you can never judge a product "copy" rashly, what you have concerned is only the surface: they are looking similar to each other, so, one copied other. I don't know on which point CHENGGONG "copied" CAT or JOHN DEER or some other brands, I think US government is smart, they will not "shooting themselves in the foot by supporting crooks"(quote Abscraperguy in #18 ), to let CG sale their "copy products" in US market.
 

monkey

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2010
Messages
136
Location
lousyana
ya'll are bashing China and or their products. Should we not be praising them for buying up our debt and keeping our government afloat :notworthy

:rolleyes:
 

D&GExcavating

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Messages
341
Location
Minnesota
this is the main site, is it me or is their backhoe a complete rip off of a CAT E-Series???

http://www.cgloader.com/

The loaders look like Cat G/H series rip offs too

I would steer away from them. We've been using nothing but Cat and John Deere since we started. Your equipment is your lively hood, so I don't see why people are so eager to skimp out. In my opinion you get what you pay for.
 

sino-john

Active Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Messages
31
Location
China
Occupation
international trade
There is no doubt I respect the choice of users. The quality of CAT and Deer is really good. I suppose people buy a cheap for their own reasons. There are many machinery brands in this world, and it is impossible for everyone to use CAT and Deer only.
 

wsw

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
122
Location
ontario Canada
With only 2 forward and 1 reverse gear I'd be selling it too, cause I wouldn't expect alot of production out of it
 

sino-john

Active Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Messages
31
Location
China
Occupation
international trade
2 forward and 1 reverse there is a good reason right there to stay away from it

come on, man! different gear box use in different work environment, will you use a 10T loader on the farm? according to the feedback of customers, this machine works very well on the mine site. 2F/1R transmission is designed to use in the point-to-point work condition.
 
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