grading a driveway

[watglen]

I should have asked this a long time ago.

I got into a job this winter. Guy wanted his driveway graded. Was about a kilometer long. Over the years he had added a lot of gravel to build it up, but was quite narrow. He had many contractors come in and grade it over the years, and was generally unhappy with the results.

He was very specific about what he wanted. It was to be smoothed out, but not widened. No gravel was to be dribbled on the adjacent lawn.

When I attempted it there was still a bit of frost in the ground. I think it was a lost cause from the start, but it never hurts to try.

What he did say was one particular contractor had done a great job, and the results lasted for many years. He had no idea what technique he used but wanted me to do the same. ?????

Needless to say, my results were poor, and I didn't charge him for what we attempted to do. I don't think it was any worse when we finished, but he wasn't happy so.....

Anyway, my question. Using a D5g with PAT, how do you grade a driveway to eliminate washboard and potholes, keep it narrow, crowned high, and prevent the gravel from dribbling off the edge of the driveway?

Thanks for the help.

Ken

 

[oarwhat]

First of all this is a guy you'll never be able to satisfy. The old guy will always do a better job. I've done work for quite a few guys like this. Second I think you need to use a small grader like the old model D's or whatever is around now.

 

[thebaz]

Totally agree with oarwhat. I generally stay away from this type of client, who have had the same job done by different contractors, with only dis-satisfaction as the outcome.
Unless you have a job specific machine, (as in this case, say a small grader), that will enable you to do something other could not, you will spend time, lose money, and have an unhappy client who will tell the next contractor how poor a job you did.

 

[maddog]

I don't completely disagree with the above two post, but, he is the customer. I have seen many "contractors" that are more worried about quintity instead of quility. Maybe the guy does know what he wants and if someone made him happy before then there must be away to make him happy now. I think you did the right thing by not charging, sucks for you but maybe it left a good impression on him? Sometimes we either don't have the equipment or knowledge of how to do a job the way the customer wants. In cases like that it takes more of a person to stand up and say sorry "I can't accomplish this at this time". It shows respect for yourself and the person that hired you, and he may just give your name down the road for work. I've seen a couple of outfits around here that just think their ___ don't stink, it's finally catching up with them. People will eventually realize who is full of themselves and who is out to atleast give it their best shot.

The only way I can think you could have done the job would have been with a smaller type machine. Hard to really say without actually being there and looking.

 

[vapor300]

Grade a narrow drive without losing and material off the side be hard even with a vpat

 

[Colorado Digger]

I have given many breaks on work and more so, done lot's of free work trying to please people. That being said, did you at least get paid for the gravel? How wide was the driveway? Going at it with frost in the ground was also a mistake. If there are potholes and washboards usually the road need to be reworked. With frozen ground it wouldn't be possible to work the material so the best best would be to tailgate a load or two of screened rock on it and call it good until it thawed. I usually ditch both sides to the middle and then do one pass down the middle. There is no sense is working a road twenty times over and over. The last pass I will just take a skiff of the top and it should leave a nice crown. I tend to over do the crown but in my parts it is a good idea.

Regasrds, CD

 

[CM1995]

Why didn't he call the contractor that did the job to his satisfaction?:cool2

 

[thebaz]

Why didn't he call the contractor that did the job to his satisfaction?

This is something that has always puzzled me and is a real problem when you are starting out and not sure what an experienced operator is capable of, and the client is telling you, "the last guy was faster, cheaper, and washed my car at the end of the job as well, blah, blah, blah".
When you know your limitations, you also get to know when a client has an unrealistic expectation, which can only end in tears.
While there can always be an element of doubt as to whether or not the client is reasonable, such as maybe this client could have had people, (apart from the mystery contractor), who lacked the care/expertise to give him what he wanted previously, but let's face it, a kilometer narrow driveway, graded with no spill, is going to be difficult for most contractors to achieve, especially with a D5 and frost involved.

 

[Tommy]

I own a body shop, so I don't know much about grading, but I have had success doing what you tried.

A guy from the Texas highway dept. once told me the best time to grade a road is right after a rain. Man there is a lot of truth to that statement. If it doesn't rain, get a water truck and soak it down first. Then with a six way blade you should be able to grade down both sides and crown what's already there.

If you're adding material, make sure it's the right stuff and do it with a belly dump. Down here we use what's called post oak gravel. It grades and compacts very well. A belly dump set correctly should give you a nice tall narrow pile of material right down the middle of the road to work with. All you have to do is shave it down and contour the sides with your six way.

 

[oarwhat]

Were getting off track here I know but here's one on my favorites. Get a call from a friend of a friend of a friend, that needs some dozer work done. OK I say we're crazy busy maybe in a couple weeks oh no! Has to be done yesterday blah blah blah. Ok I'll haul a dozer from the other end of town and do it this Saturday. I check out the job he has maybe 20 loads of dirt and concrete that needs to be pushed down a 20' embankment. So I bring the smallest dozer and figure maybe 2-3 hours. Oh no the guy wants the concrete on the bottom in an exact area leveled for a garage. The dirt was near the embankment with the concrete behind it WTF. Had to push the slabs of concrete over the dirt to get them down the embankment. Okay this will take a while and beat up my little TD-7 but no problem. I spent like 7 hours with him watching cross armed and telling me how to do it. Don't do that, why did you do this. why don't you do that, move that here, do drive over there. Then he tells me how the last guy would have done it and how he was much better and faster and cheaper. Well that did it. I told him to go find this guy and let him finish up as I'm leaving NOW. That shut him up I finished the job and when he's paying he says you did all right I guess. I had been an operator for over 10 years at that time and know I did the best job anyone could have done. I was there on 3 days notice, for less money than his last guy (I knew what that guy charged)I beat the crap out of my little dozer and you're not really happy. WTF Sorry for the rant but this got my blood boiling just typing it 15 years later.

 

[dirtmonkey]

Were getting off track here I know but here's one on my favorites. Get a call from a friend of a friend of a friend, that needs some dozer work done. OK I say we're crazy busy maybe in a couple weeks oh no! Has to be done yesterday blah blah blah. Ok I'll haul a dozer from the other end of town and do it this Saturday. I check out the job he has maybe 20 loads of dirt and concrete that needs to be pushed down a 20' embankment. So I bring the smallest dozer and figure maybe 2-3 hours. Oh no the guy wants the concrete on the bottom in an exact area leveled for a garage. The dirt was near the embankment with the concrete behind it WTF. Had to push the slabs of concrete over the dirt to get them down the embankment. Okay this will take a while and beat up my little TD-7 but no problem. I spent like 7 hours with him watching cross armed and telling me how to do it. Don't do that, why did you do this. why don't you do that, move that here, do drive over there. Then he tells me how the last guy would have done it and how he was much better and faster and cheaper. Well that did it. I told him to go find this guy and let him finish up as I'm leaving NOW. That shut him up I finished the job and when he's paying he says you did all right I guess. I had been an operator for over 10 years at that time and know I did the best job anyone could have done. I was there on 3 days notice, for less money than his last guy (I knew what that guy charged)I beat the crap out of my little dozer and you're not really happy. WTF Sorry for the rant but this got my blood boiling just typing it 15 years later.

I think we all get those at some point in life. After you've for worked one , you learn to spot'em from a mile away ! Call it an education. :Banghead

 

[RIrwin]

I spent like 7 hours with him watching cross armed and telling me how to do it. Don't do that, why did you do this. why don't you do that, move that here, do drive over there.

I don't understand why people always think they know everything when it comes to equipment. I'm guessing because many people have "driven", not operated a skid steer at some point in their lives, that the 30 minutes of seat time has made them an expert. They act like its so easy and there's nothing to it. My favorites are the jobs where I get the call to come in and fix where the person thought they knew everything and rented the equipment themselves and made a huge mess. At this point they've learned that they don't know it all so they'll shut up and let you work, but not always.

 

[watglen]

Hey thanks for all the replies guys. I knew I should have told him to wait till spring cuz it was a lost cause in january. But I am trying to build a customer base, and learn the trade, and the business, all at the same time. I wasn't raised in this business so I have a lot to learn quick, which was really my goal on this project.

We were there for a much larger job, this was just a little filler job for the guy. It was one of those jobs where the owner gets the "mightaswells" As in "you might as well" do that while you're here. I do everything I can to make them aware of the dollars involved with each little adder, but they are still dumbstruck by the bill.

Human nature I guess.

Anyway, all's well that ends well, I hope to do some tile work for him this summer, plus drainage tile install on his father's farm as well.

 

[ILLICEMAN]

I hate to say it but a box blade on a tractor can be easy and do a great job.Yes you have a learning curve but it can really work well.

 

[g_man]

First thought that came to mind was why didn't he hire the other guy. Maybe the other guy, if he exists, would not work for him again.

I leave the dozer home for driveway maintenence. Unless it is a real serious redo.
I built this little Grading Scraper for doing that kind work. Cuts wash board and fills wheel ruts like a charm. It remixes the top surface gravel so it looks like new gravel when your done. Also holds gravel in the road so it doesn't dribble into the ditch. If there is a crown it will not knock it down unless you want to. But it will not build a crown very efficiently. I use a rear blade for that.
If you do much driveway work and have a tractor I would look into one of these. Just make sure it is heavy enough to cut.
Here is the kind of job you get.

 

[ILLICEMAN]

Great job with your box blade.A help with the center is to lift one side of 3 pt. up with the leveling cranks.Yes a angle on a rear blade is a little better but the crank method works for me.

 

[thebaz]

Well that did it. I told him to go find this guy and let him finish up as I'm leaving NOW.

I've been at that point a few times, and done the same thing, it's amazing how quickly they do a back flip when they realize they are no long the expert and you have called their bluff. Oh, and that miracle operator that has been shoved in your face for the last eight hours is suddenly no longer a threat!
I now try and pre-empt these type of situations and walk away if it looks potentially like it could go bad.
Whether I am desperate or flooded with work I try and apply the same boundaries. There is nothing worse than being short of cash and working for a difficult customer who you have to fight with about the quality and price of the job you have just done.

 

[j&d]

Ah the mightaswells.
We always referred to that kind of work as "sensuous" work. The neighbor always showed up when you were about done and says "Sensuous in the area I thought you might want to come over and clear a short fencerow for me." Then when your about done with that he would say "Sensuous getting along so well with that why don't I take you over the hill and show you a waterway I'd like shaped." Three days later the neighbor to the west would show up and it starts all over again with "Sensuous doing such a nice job shaping that up come do a terrace cleanout for me."
Now don't get me wrong I like sensuous work and I can do it with the best of them, but when you already told the next person on the list you'd be there tomorrow and now it's a week later just because you thought you'd save some money moving.....well .....that next person on the list has you on speed dial. Sometimes it just don't pay!
Sorry I couldn't help with the driveway.

Jeff

 

[CM1995]

There is nothing worse than being short of cash and working for a difficult customer who you have to fight with about the quality and price of the job you have just done.

Very well said, been there done that and it sucks...

 

[Dwan Hall]

Even with a small grader the frost would be a problem. You have just passed a course in the school of hard knocks on when to say "not now". Your education from this school will be ongoing even after 30+ years. I can wallpaper the house with the lessons I have learned at this institution. A lot of the time you will have to pay for that education but as time goes along you will learn to bluff your way into getting paid to learn.
Don't be afraid to tell the customer you are inexperienced at the particular job he needs done and will only charge him/her only if they are satisfied. but they must at least pay for the materials and fuel used on the job.

Good luck on your future education.