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Genie S85 S/N 1708 year 1999 - Hydraulic problem

Discussion in 'Other Construction/Demolition Equipment' started by usedequipment, Aug 27, 2016.

  1. usedequipment

    usedequipment Member

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    Dear Don,
    Thanks for your reply ! We are checking the wiring diagram on Genie S85 1999 to check for any broken wires once more time.
    All of our machines have Deutz F4L1011F Engine fueled by Diesel. When we attempt to start when the engine is hot, there is nothing happens. The engine doesn't crank over. We are testing by removing 3 wires that connected to Pressure sending unit and Temperature sending unit. Maybe, it will help.
     
  2. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    I don't think those switches, which are connected to the engine fault input #10 on the ignition/start module should prevent cranking. The oil pressure switch should be closed with no oil pressure, which grounds terminal #10 on the module, so with the engine off, it starts out in a fault state until oil pressure comes up. I don't know how smart the module is, if the motor will start cold with the wire removed from terminal #10 on the ignition/start module then I don't think the oil pressure or oil temp switches are the problem? Easy enough to try.

    When hot check power to the module at terminal #6 and the start relay CR1 pin 30, comes from circuit breaker CB1 . Check module terminal #1 for power out and at relay CR1 for power from the module on pin 85 when trying to start. While still hot, jumper pins 30 and 87 to test the starter solenoid.

    Hope that helps...
     
  3. usedequipment

    usedequipment Member

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    Hi Don,
    We hope you had a great holiday. As we were very busy since October, we couldn't check the machine. Up to now, we still face the same problem with the hydraulic system :
    1. Valve G - We tested and it worked normally.(We also checked the wiring diagram. We believe it only has voltage when lower the main boom and retract the boom). We checked the wiring diagram many times and we can assure that.
    2. Our technician tried to wire directly to Valve G to force it always received voltage. The results were : all functions worked; the hydraulic became very hot after few minutes; the main pressure built up inside the manifold was extremely high).

    At the moment, we face another problem with the manifold. When the mechanic tested the manifold to identify the problem. He wired directly to valve G. When he was testing some functions. The manifold was stucked and all functions are now inoperative. We had to shut off the engine since we scared that the manifold could be broken because of that. Now, when we start the machine, the manifold has a strange sound ( it looked like 1 valve closed and blocked the fluid flows).
    Could you please give us some useful advice for this problem ? The machine are bombarding us with many problems. We only used it for 1 month since we bought it 1,5 year ago.
    Regards,
    Nick,
     
  4. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    I would start by removing all valve cartridges one at a time, inspect for bad o-rings, reinstall. Pay particular attention to valve Y and valve L, also the system relief, if possible try known good substitutes one at a time from another machine?
     
  5. usedequipment

    usedequipment Member

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    Dear Don,
    Really thanksful for your reply. We will try your suggestion and let you know the result.
    On the schematic, What is the main function of valve G ? Is there any valve that returns the flow back to the tank beside valve G ?
    What is the status of valve G when the machine runs and no functions are activated ?
    Regards,
    Nick
     
  6. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    Valve G dumps oil back to tank. Valve M dumps oil through valve G to tank when valve G is not activated unless valve M is closed by the axle limit switch valve activating it.

    Valve Y is supposed to dump some oil back to tank regulating pressure to be only as high as needed to move the load, it is controlled by load sense lines from check valves for each circuit. And of course the main relief valve Z
     
  7. steven nguyen

    steven nguyen Member

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    Dear Don,
    Look at the Diagram, we see that the Dump Valve (G) receiving power only when the CR20 actived ( when power supply to #85 of CR 20). the power come to #85 from:
    1. red/blk wire only when primary boom down.
    2. all power through LS2 (Normally closed). the power thourgh LS2 come from TB42 & blk/wht wire only when the boom Retract. Power through TB42 come from org/red-1 & through LS1 (Normally Open hold Closed NO HC)
    +Org/red-1 come from # R of BP1 ( platform control joysitk boom up/down & turn table rotate left/right)- it means only when we turn to platfrom box control will have power in.
    +Power through LS only when the LS1 actived ( boom up/down fully)

    So that is why we said the Power to G ( only when boom down and Retract)

    We want to hear your comment again.
    Thanks
    steven
     
  8. steven nguyen

    steven nguyen Member

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    Dear Don,
    If the G (dump valve) always receiving power 12V. Do you think the coil of G valve will become very hot. Is it ok if working 03-04 hour/1 time?
    Regards
    Steven
     
  9. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    I think we are saying the same thing in different ways, yes power goes to valve G when the boom is down and not extended. Once either of those limit switches opens then power is only sent to valve G when certain functions are engaged.
    Since having the boom down and retracted at all times would not be normal operation then the coil of valve G would not be powered continuously except in very rare circumstances. Still if your pressure is above 2,000 psi with valve G or valve M closed and no functions engaged, then there is a problem elsewhere, as I mentioned before possibly with valve Y?
     
  10. steven nguyen

    steven nguyen Member

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    I think we are saying the same thing in different ways, yes power goes to valve G when the boom is down and not extended. Once either of those limit switches opens then power is only sent to valve G when certain functions are engaged.
    Since having the boom down and retracted at all times would not be normal operation then the coil of valve G would not be powered continuously except in very rare circumstances. Still if your pressure is above 2,000 psi with valve G or valve M closed and no functions engaged, then there is a problem elsewhere, as I mentioned before possibly with valve Y?
    [Dear Don,
    We Can understand a little bit your explain. When the boom is down and boom retract. the valve G is received 12V is confirmed. We understand it
    But if in another working such when the boom up/extend, turn table... ( not boom down and retract). The Valve G still received 12V directly when any function is engaged. Or just the function valve on Manifold function received power when function engaged.
    Further More, We still confused that what is the Limit switch LS1 (boom extend limit) N.O.H.C? Our understand is the Limit switch LS 1 is always is in Closed position ( have power through) to LS2 in most normal working. It just Open ( No Power) when Boom is in ( Max Boom extend (Limit function). Is it, right?
    So The Power through LS1 now mostly come from TB21. So if TB21 is in Power then the LS1 have power through LS1, LS2 and G Valve. We see TB21 is always have power because CR2 is always in closed if engine is running.

    Some more share with us your understand about Limit Switch. Can you explain?
    1. Limit Switch 1 (boom extend limit) LS1 NOHC. Our understand is in normally working (boom extend/retract) not touch the limit ( boom not totally extend) the power always is through in Diagram.
    2. Limit Switch 1 (boom extend limit) LS1 NCHO is against 1.
    3. Limit switch 2 ( Boom Up) NC- normally closed. it is always power through in diagram when boom up/down. it is open ( not power) when boom is touch limit( max boom up)
    4. Limit switch 2 ( Boom Up) NO- normally Open. it is not power through in diagram when boom up/down. it is closed ( power) when boom is touch limit( max boom up)

    want to hear your idea]
     
  11. steven nguyen

    steven nguyen Member

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    Dear Don,
    We Can understand a little bit your explain. When the boom is down and boom retract. the valve G is received 12V is confirmed. We understand it
    But if in another working such when the boom up/extend, turn table... ( not boom down and retract). The Valve G still received 12V directly when any function is engaged. Or just the function valve on Manifold function received power when function engaged.
    Further More, We still confused that what is the Limit switch LS1 (boom extend limit) N.O.H.C? Our understand is the Limit switch LS 1 is always is in Closed position ( have power through) to LS2 in most normal working. It just Open ( No Power) when Boom is in ( Max Boom extend (Limit function). Is it, right?
    So The Power through LS1 now mostly come from TB21. So if TB21 is in Power then the LS1 have power through LS1, LS2 and G Valve. We see TB21 is always have power because CR2 is always in closed if engine is running.

    Some more share with us your understand about Limit Switch. Can you explain?
    1. Limit Switch 1 (boom extend limit) LS1 NOHC. Our understand is in normally working (boom extend/retract) not touch the limit ( boom not totally extend) the power always is through in Diagram.
    2. Limit Switch 1 (boom extend limit) LS1 NCHO is against 1.
    3. Limit switch 2 ( Boom Up) NC- normally closed. it is always power through in diagram when boom up/down. it is open ( not power) when boom is touch limit( max boom up)
    4. Limit switch 2 ( Boom Up) NO- normally Open. it is not power through in diagram when boom up/down. it is closed ( power) when boom is touch limit( max boom up)
    We are looking for your reply

    Regards
    Steven
     
  12. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    Please give me a little time, I need to go back and study the schematics more as it has been some time since I looked at them last.
     
  13. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    The manual gives some conflicting information but this is my understanding:

    Test the Extendable Axles Limit switch functions:
    7 Hold the function enable switch to either side
    and activate the boom raise function.
    Result: The boom should raise to horizontal and
    then stop. The boom should not raise above the
    limit switch unless both axles are extended.
    8 Hold the function enable switch to either side
    and activate the boom lower function.
    Result: The boom should lower and return to the
    stowed position.
    9 Hold the function enable switch to either side
    and activate the boom extend function.
    Result: The boom should extend no more than 6
    inches (15 cm) and then stop. The boom should
    not extend beyond the limit switch unless both
    axles are extended.
    10 Hold the function enable switch to either side
    and activate the boom retract function.
    Result: The boom should retract.

    Testing limit switches:
    8 Turn the key switch to platform controls and
    fully retract the boom.
    9 Move the lift/drive selector switch to the drive
    position (if equipped).
    10 Press down the foot switch and slowly move the
    drive controller off center.
    Result: The machine should move at normal
    drive speeds.
    11 Move the lift/drive selector switch to the lift
    position (if equipped).
    12 Raise the boom to just above horizontal.
    13 Move the lift/drive selector switch to the drive
    position (if equipped).
    14 Slowly move the drive controller off center.
    Result: The machine should move at a reduced
    drive speed.
    15 Move the lift/drive selector switch to the lift
    position (if equipped).
    16 Lower the boom to the stowed position, then
    extend the boom 3 feet (0.9 m).
    17 Move the lift/drive selector switch to the drive
    position (if equipped).
    18 Slowly move the drive controller off center.
    Result: The machine should move at a reduced
    drive speed.

    LS2 the boom lift limit switch, the NC (Normally Closed) contacts are closed with the boom fully down (switch NOT activated) and should open as the boom lifts up to a level position where the switch activates, and remain open from level on up to maximum lift. The LS2 NO (Normally Open) contacts will close at the same time the NC contacts open and remain closed on up to maximum lift.

    LS1 the boom retract limit switch, the NOHC (Normally Open, Held Closed) contacts are closed with the boom fully retracted (switch activated) and will open as the boom is extended, according to the manual within the first 6 to 8 inches (Switch released). The NCHO (Normally Closed Held Open) contacts of course will of course close at the same time.

    Both of these switches are designed to activate at the minimum limit, not maximum lift or maximum extension.
     
  14. steven nguyen

    steven nguyen Member

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    Dear Lantaxco,
    Noted your information,
    so we have some final issue that:
    1. if the boom up to NOHC (acitived) and LS2 (NC) no actived ( machine in normally working condition) we see the power will only go to the G valve when we retracted boom.

    2. What is the problem if we disable the LS1, LS2? do you think machine still in working condition? with all function.

    Regards
    Nick
     
  15. steven nguyen

    steven nguyen Member

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    Dear Don,
    As you explained so...
    G valve will received Power whenever the function engaged, right?
    Whenever we operate such boom up/down, turn table left/right, .... the G valve will receiving power (12V)?
    How about the driving and steering function? Do the G Valve still receiving power at the time?

    We face a another problem such as belows:
    1. We have another similiar machine, we do not supply G valve whenever we operate another function but boom down and retract only. and the machine still working more than 02 month and have no problem
    2. We also have another machine, we also try to disable the power to G valve as above 1 but the machine just working around 04 days. later on, if we did not supply power to G valve all function can not operate.

    Before we also follow your sugest that G valve will received power when function engaged. but the hyd system become hot rapidly if we do like that

    please give your ideas
    Regards
    Steven
     
  16. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    These limit switches are supposed to prevent the operator from raising or extending the boom too far without the axles fully extended, there is a hydraulic limit switch on the axles that actuates valve M. it performs the same function as valve G. Once the axles are fully extended all functions should work regardless of power supplied to valve G or not.
     
  17. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    The steering should not be affected as the steering flow is divided off before the function valves, the drive is a separate pump entirely so there is no connection between the work functions and the drive functions.

    Again, unless the axles are fully extended and the hydraulic limit system actuates valve M, then functions will only work with valve G actuated, this is the way the safety system works on these machines.

    Apologies if I have not answered all your questions, please let me know if you have new information.
     
  18. steven nguyen

    steven nguyen Member

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    Dear Don,
    How are you?

    Once again we need your support!

    Yeah, We already bought and replaced new L, Y Valve for this machine.
    Then the result is:
    1. when we start engine, no power in G dump valve, the Hydraulic is normal, hydraulic system pressure at 600 PSI around ( no noisy), very smooth
    2. As soon we want to active the function, we suppy power 12V to G valve, if we do not active function the hydraulic system sound very noisy ( the sound is: huuuuuuuuhhuu) then we try to active function, it is not huuuuuuuh any more.

    Before that: we already reset the relief pressure:
    a. System relief valve, set at 2800 PSI ( 2900 PSI as specification )
    b. Boom down function,set at: around 2300 PSI ( 2300 PSI as specification )
    c. Boom extend function, set at: 2400 PSI (2500 PSI as specification)
    Do you think we need to set as correctted in specification

    on another machine, if we supply power to G and no active function the hydraulic system sound not huuuuuuuuhhh, it is quite silent. it is only teeeheheeh

    We think:
    may be, the system relief got damage or one of valves is died But we dont know how to check it out
    So we hope to receive your ideas!

    Regards
    Steven
     
  19. steven nguyen

    steven nguyen Member

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    Hi Don,
    We hope to receive your idea,
    We already bought new Valve Y, L and also dump valve (G) replace the old one
    At the begining. As soon we replaced the brand new Y,L and also G valve. When we supply 12V and no active any function. The hydraulic system sound is normally ( only sheeeeee)
    we tried to active the function all function working, driving also but not the steering and jack chassing no working. we see the hydraulic pressure is only 600 psi at the time.
    But if we active boom down, up hydraulic pressure begin to come up to 1500 PSI, and 2900 PSI if retract boom.
    10 minutes testing and then If we no acitive the pressure is coming down, but the hydraulic become sound noisy (huuuuuu) if we no active function and still supply power to G valve.
    Remember, if supply power to G valve, no active any function, the Hyd system pressure only 600 PSI plus
    We think the problem is the system relief valve but we dont know which is the valve relief got damaged?
    We hope your support again because we need to repair it to take out for rental but we can not repair sucessfully until now!

    Regards
    Steven
     
  20. lantraxco

    lantraxco Senior Member

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    Am I understanding that the steering and jacks are not working now? If that is true check flow divider valve CC, it sends 5 gallons per minute to the steering valve, and on to the jack system. If the valve is not sending oil to the steering, then there maybe excessive flow through the function manifold which could cause the noise issue. Cheers, Don