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French Drain Installation

Gmc7210

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
20
Location
plattsburgh new york
Occupation
Owner of small excavating/landscaping company
I just picked up this job at the local beer distributor. They are having problems with water accumulating in their back lot. The majority of the water from the beer plant's parking lot (paved) as well the neighboring truck terminal's lot (gravel) drain into this naturally low gravel area. Their is a drainage ditch that currently exists to alleviate the water, but it terminates on the neighbor's property(previously undeveloped) and floods them out when it rains. I would estimate the total area of the parking lots that are to be about 4 acres, half gravel;half paved. My plan is to use 110 feet of the existing drainage ditch, surround a perforated 8'' corrugated plastic culvert pipe with crushed stone, and plumb this to a catch basin on a kind neighbors property about 450 feet away. Do you think this is a good plan? Will it collect the water at a reasonable rate? How much pitch should i put on the pipe? Will the perforated pipe be frozen when the snow melt.? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
 

stock

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
2,022
Location
Eire
Occupation
We have moved on and now were lost....
What is the heaviest daily rain in the area? bear in mind that an 1" of rain per acre is 250,000gals. you might consider an attenuation pond or tank to store a flash downpour......
 

Gmc7210

Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
20
Location
plattsburgh new york
Occupation
Owner of small excavating/landscaping company
In an average month in this area, we get about 3 inches of precipitation. I couldn't find info on daily rainfall, but I know last week Irene sent us about 5'' in a day and a half. That isn't however anything that happens more than one time in a lifetime. I'll take the pond idea into consideration though.
 

dayexco

Senior Member
Joined
May 21, 2005
Messages
1,224
Location
south dakota
most jurisdictions will not allow you to divert drainage onto an adjoining landowner's property without a drainage easement. might want to check into that. the other questions you ask, may require the services of a civil engineer.
 

Ropinghorns

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
98
Location
Coweta Oklahoma
It sounds like the problem was caused by the other neighbor that developed last. Can you check with the local authority and make sure it was done to code. French drains are my last resort. They do not catch much run off water.
 

Randy88

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2009
Messages
2,149
Location
iowa
Not exactly sure what your trying to do for sure, around here a french drain is a tile trenched in and covered with crushed rock for the water to soak in faster, but for the size of parking lot and the fact its either cement or rock, unless you've got a collection site for water to sit so it can seep in your wasting your time, an intake will take way more water faster than any french drain will, second a 8 inch line is way undersized for what your doing unless you have 2-3 % slope on the line or more, I'd opt for a 10 or even a 12 with several 12 inch intakes on it if you can channel the water to them so they can pool around an intake and run into them. Lastly if you have freezing weather, yes the rock will be frozen when you need it to work in the spring, that's why I don't recommend them at all, because the highest water run off is in the spring when the rock is still frozen and can't soak into the line. I'm not sure how deep your putting this line in the ground or where your outlet will be but with the water volume you'll have it'll create quite a ditch at the outlet end over time. Is the neighbor complaining or the owner of the parking lot? Does the water dam up somewhere along the line where it sits, either at the edge of the property or in the middle somewhere, does the parking lot slope one direction or towards one corner? Pictures are helpful for us to give a good recommendation so we understand and can see what's going on. I'd opt for big tile and several intakes or even more spread out to low lying areas so water can run into them, they never freeze and will take water as fast as the line can take it away, if your going 450 ft we'll need to know what the slope of the ground is now to determine what size line you'll need to help take it away fast enough. Is this in the city? do they have storm sewer's nearby to dump into or can they run a storm sewer up to the property line for you, those are usually big enough to handle this water volume, also where does the proposed outlet end up? Are you going to flood out the next guy down stream beyond the current neighbor?

Around here water can flow downstream as long as it leaves your property the same as mother nature intended it to and there's nothing anybody down stream can do about it, now when you alter where it exits your property or how it exits your property that's where legal problems arise, you can pipe it through a neighbors property and dump it onto the next guy down stream as long as you dump it in the same place it would naturally flow by itself if you didn't use tile, but that depends on the area and state and city laws, so check those all out, sometimes once its put in a tile you need permits to outlet the line even if its in the same place it would flow naturally.

I did something similar to what your wanting to do but for my building site and we used two 10 inch lines with about 5 six inch to 12 inch intakes and put small terraces to collect the water and also put reliefs on the lines to allow excess water and pressure to be relieved, the system works great and water only pools for a few hours after a heavy rain and then it's all gone down and it eliminated all the flooding and washing and soft spots around the buildings where water sat before.
 

CM1995

Administrator
Joined
Jan 21, 2007
Messages
13,399
Location
Alabama
Occupation
Running what I brung and taking what I win
the other questions you ask, may require the services of a civil engineer.

Day's right, the owner needs an engineer to draw a set of prints and work off those.

Why would a contractor take on the liability of the engineering/design work yet not get compensated for it? Engineers charge hefty fees because their butts are on the line for what they design. Now if you are doing the project as a design/build and you are getting fees on both the design side and build side then by all means go for it.

Take for example a project we did about a month or so ago. Distribution warehouse with cold storage, the job was to remove 18" of saturated, heavy clay and replace with clean #57 (3/4 clear) stone and filter fabric over an area 45' wide by 72' long, so the new cooler they were building could be constructed. (Someone else saw-cut and removed the concrete floor.) The project engineer was worried that the water in the soil would freeze underneath the cooler (-20F) and buckle the floor of the $100K freezer that is going on top.

This project had a lot of groundwater underneath the slab, totally saturated. We ditched the sub-grade and set up a sump pump the day before to remove the surface water. The dig went fairly well and we completed the job in one very long Saturday.

The Engineer, being worried about the ground water, also required the owner to go outside the building (adjacent to the area inside the building we excavated) and construct a 45' long, 3' wide french drain - filter fabric, #57 stone full backfill and a connector pipe to drain it. When we dug the french drain the ditch was dry as a bone. The water was not coming from the outside of the building (at least in that area).

The owner knew he was wasting money on the french drain and even stated that 18" of #57 stone backfill under the cooler was probably overkill but he followed the Engineers plan because quote "The engineer spec'd this design and if the floor underneath my $100K cooler fails, I want his signature on it".

Moral of the story - Let the engineer design it and the contractor install it, however screwy the design may be.
 
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