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D9h - d353

Pathull

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
45
Location
Australia
You won't feel that way if they come apart and it has been known to happen.
From an old service bulletin,hope you can read it.....

old magnet
the service bulletin you have put up only states that the factory knows that they are unnecessary and are/were only still used as an indication to show weather the nuts had been tightened of not, that's is what a paint marker is for these days!
 

Scrub Puller

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Gladstone Queensland Australia
Yair . . .

Cold for Queensland would be considered as anything under 20 degrees Centigrade (68 Fahrenheit) I suppose ........

Gotch Nige (Big grin)

It can get cold though. In that South West border country zero centigrade is common enough and I see a little further north it got down to minus seven C one night in 1987.

Cheers.
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,179
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
Yair . . .



Gotch Nige (Big grin)

It can get cold though. In that South West border country zero centigrade is common enough and I see a little further north it got down to minus seven C one night in 1987.

Cheers.

-7 º C? that's almost 20 ºF heck around here that's still tee shirt and shorts weather right Grandpa?
 

John C.

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
12,870
Location
Northwest
Occupation
Machinery & Equipment Appraiser
Engineering standards were different way back when and a lot of procedures carried over even though materials science and engineering got a lot better. An engineer for a bolt company told me that they loved to sell them but didn't want anyone to use them. To me cotter keys work in places where a nut can't be pulled tight. Some control linkages such as throttle and transmission control cables and such. Lock wires are a carry over from before the grading of bolts and hardware. I had to use them when I was in the USNavy but have never seen them again. I don't even own a pair a wire winding pliers. Politics and money are the only reason they have stuck around. I have to agree that one of my worst fears is having reassembled a big expensive motor only to find the end of a cotter pin in the bottom of a drain pan at the first oil change.

I used to use the lock washer issue as a way to test personnel. When I started running shops I absolutely forbid their use and made the bolt sales people take them all back. Then I looked for the wonk that jumped over my head to management and promptly marked him for release at the earliest opportunity.
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,179
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
I used to use the lock washer issue as a way to test personnel. When I started running shops I absolutely forbid their use and made the bolt sales people take them all back. Then I looked for the wonk that jumped over my head to management and promptly marked him for release at the earliest opportunity.

While we are on this lock washer topic one thing that kind of seemed odd to me. If you assemble something with a combination of nut and bolt and use a lock washer under the nut, what is stopping the bolt from turning and the assembly falling apart? One could maybe make a case for lock washers when the bolt is going in to say a casting or the nut is being installed on a stud that is tight in the housing, but when it's a nut and bolt assembly ????

Back sometime in the early 1970's. After seeing so many new Cat machines coming through that just a few years back would have had lock washers and sheet metal lock plates on just about every fastener. I was in the process of doing a ground up rebuild of my old Farmal BN tractor. Well I decided to try an experiment for myself. Not one lock washer was used assembling this old tractor. Many bolts had to be replaced with shorter bolts due to the lack of the locks, the old ones were often the extra thick style. Well as of today when I was mowing the lawn with this tractor I have not seen one fastener come loose due to the lack of lock washers.

If they make you feel better feel free to make use of them.
 

kshansen

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,179
Location
Central New York, USA
Occupation
Retired Mechanic in Stone Quarry
I used to use the lock washer issue as a way to test personnel. When I started running shops I absolutely forbid their use and made the bolt sales people take them all back. Then I looked for the wonk that jumped over my head to management and promptly marked him for release at the earliest opportunity.

While we are on this lock washer topic one thing that kind of seemed odd to me. If you assemble something with a combination of nut and bolt and use a lock washer under the nut, what is stopping the bolt from turning and the assembly falling apart? One could maybe make a case for lock washers when the bolt is going in to say a casting or the nut is being installed on a stud that is tight in the housing, but when it's a nut and bolt assembly ????

Back sometime in the early 1970's. After seeing so many new Cat machines coming through that just a few years back would have had lock washers and sheet metal lock plates on just about every fastener. I was in the process of doing a ground up rebuild of my old Farmal BN tractor. Well I decided to try an experiment for myself. Not one lock washer was used assembling this old tractor. Many bolts had to be replaced with shorter bolts due to the lack of the locks, the old ones were often the extra thick style. Well as of today when I was mowing the lawn with this tractor I have not seen one fastener come loose due to the lack of lock washers.

If they make you feel better feel free to make use of them.
 

Old Magnet

Senior Member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
2,013
Location
Corralitos, California
Got to confess I still use the split pins on the old stuff, the real shakers. Not just any pin though. I use the largest one that will fit the hole and expand it so it is not flopping around. Seems to work out fine and yes I have learned all the cuss words and got the scars to match.
 

Pathull

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2013
Messages
45
Location
Australia
Got to confess I still use the split pins on the old stuff, the real shakers. Not just any pin though. I use the largest one that will fit the hole and expand it so it is not flopping around. Seems to work out fine and yes I have learned all the cuss words and got the scars to match.

I tend to agree with Old Magnet on this comment, if I was to use split pins I would only use genuine pins OR nice fat hardened pins with no play in the holes! (not to pins you will get from your local bolt shop that are made from butter)
 

lantraxco

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,704
Location
Elsewhen
I was told by a man that should have known, that the split lock washers not only did not prevent loosening as well as proper torque and a thread lock material, OR a self locking nut, be it nylock or crimped metal, but in testing was always the failure point in high strength fastener testing. No matter how good you make them, they always fail first due to the fact that they're not a solid ring. The split lock washer was part of the world of World War One, where most of the bolts were barely better than mild steel and had square heads. I still use them on grade five bolts if its somebody's garden tractor or utility trailer, anything where it's a critical fastening point, or I'm building it for sale, I used nylocks, or on blind threaded holes, Loctite.

As to the split pin issue, just as Tony sez, if there's a place for them, I put them in, more to give it an authentic look than anything, or to avoid some old-timer from saying I was lazy and left them out!
 

Old Magnet

Senior Member
Joined
May 11, 2010
Messages
2,013
Location
Corralitos, California
My biggest peeve with split washers is the seats they destroy during that first turn or so on removal. I'm a big fan of deformed flanged type locknuts or the grade "C" regular deformed lock nuts.
 

tctractors

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
2,417
Location
Worc U.K.
In my first or second year as an Apprentice I had to assemble some new implements something I had done many times before, only this time in the kit of fasteners was something that had not been seen or come across by anyone in the shop the Nylock Nut, the result being that after some debate I was told to fit the nuts upside down being told the white plastic bit was in place of the spring washer? as luck goes that week I had a trip with the Co's Truck Driver to help collect a new large implement, on it I spotted these new Nylock Nuts fitted correctly, resulting in myself making a Bee line to the implement when back in the Yard to correct this nut thing, only to find that the implement had been collected never to be seen again. tctractors
 

R.D.G013

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2013
Messages
257
Location
sunshine coast qld australia
Occupation
Heavy equipment operator/foreman for about 48yrs o
Cold for Queensland would be considered as anything under 20 degrees Centigrade (68 Fahrenheit) I suppose ........ :tong

LOL, Don't be cheeky it can get cold here in QLD, not so much near the coast but it can get below 0c in the inland areas, but winter is not long in these parts thank goodness, roll on summer, cold beers beside the pool. LOL
 
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