D9G D343 Pressure in Cooling System

[631G]

Update: We sent the heads out to get checked over and we have cracks in both heads at the precombustion chambers. Working with Costex now to see about replacements. Nothing here in Atlanta available through Yancey. Only the Penn. Cat dealer Cleveland Brothers, has to reman units available for near $7K/EA + shipping. Good times working with tired iron.

Costex appears to have bare heads in stock. Can the parts all be used off these old heads to build back these bare heads? Or should we swap out springs etc. for new?

Interesting note though, the guys that checked over the heads said that our valves were different sizes on each head. One head had 3/8" valves and the other 1/2" valves. The rep that called me wasn't there for the tear down and could not tell me if the valves were intake or exhaust. Will be trying to get the full write up to share later on when I can get it. I wonder if one of them was worked over in the past or taken off a difference machine?

 

[631G]

Nige and a few others on this forum likely have much more knowledge on these than I do but if I remember correctly the D343 was known for cracking heads, usually a bunch of tiny cracks that were very difficult to repair. I worked on one in an old 988, sent the head in to be welded up and when I re-installed it we still had a slight amount of bubbling. I called the company in Portland, Oregon who did the head and they told me to get 4-5 tubes of silver solder and dump it in. It worked, not necessarily the right way to do it but like I said, it worked. I'm not suggesting you try to repair your machine with silver solder but you might want to be prepared to find a cracked head when you pull it.

Excavator you were right, we had cracked heads. The silver solder idea is starting to sound pretty good based on the pricing I am getting back so far.

 

[Nige]

Interesting note though, the guys that checked over the heads said that our valves were different sizes on each head. One head had 3/8" valves and the other 1/2" valves.

Was that on inlet valves, exhaust, or both.?

A number of years ago I recall that the 3500 engine exhaust valves were increased in size from 3/8" to 1/2" diameter. I don't know if a similar thing happened to the D353 way back.

 

[DoyleX]

Home | Mysite

www.dieselcastwelding.com

They can fix your OE heads or get whatever aftermarket you such desire.
The local yellow store has used them for decades.

 

[631G]

Was that on inlet valves, exhaust, or both.?

A number of years ago I recall that the 3500 engine exhaust valves were increased in size from 3/8" to 1/2" diameter. I don't know if a similar thing happened to the D353 way back.

I intend to find out. I am curious to know myself. I am currently in the process of ordering a manual for the engine. Then I can have a little better idea of what is what on this old boat anchor. I also want to know the spec for straightness on the block before we sit the heads back on it.

The shop manual I have for the machine itself doesn't have the engine section included in it like the other manuals I have purchased.

 

[631G]

Home | Mysite

www.dieselcastwelding.com

They can fix your OE heads or get whatever aftermarket you such desire.
The local yellow store has used them for decades.

I'll have to give them a call and see what they can do for us. I have dealt with Blanchard Cat in South Carolina and they deal with a company I think also based in the Mid West that helps them to repair transmission cases.

 

[Check Break]

Update: We sent the heads out to get checked over and we have cracks in both heads at the precombustion chambers. Working with Costex now to see about replacements. Nothing here in Atlanta available through Yancey. Only the Penn. Cat dealer Cleveland Brothers, has to reman units available for near $7K/EA + shipping. Good times working with tired iron.

Costex appears to have bare heads in stock. Can the parts all be used off these old heads to build back these bare heads? Or should we swap out springs etc. for new?

Interesting note though, the guys that checked over the heads said that our valves were different sizes on each head. One head had 3/8" valves and the other 1/2" valves. The rep that called me wasn't there for the tear down and could not tell me if the valves were intake or exhaust. Will be trying to get the full write up to share later on when I can get it. I wonder if one of them was worked over in the past or taken off a difference machine?

You might want to give American Crane and Tractor a call (ACT Parts). Now owned by CGR. CGR used to make complete heads for the D342. Don't know if they make heads for the D353. We used to run a new CGR head through the machine shop to bring it up to spec. Never had any problems with them.

 

[nicky 68a]

Different size valve stems are common enough.
You can reuse all the parts if they are up to the mark,although springs are a good thing to replace.
Non Cat heads are easy to source in the UK,and I imagine you can get them over there too.I’ve no issues with using various non oem parts on 60 year old Cats.
As for stitching them back together,I’ve never been down that road simply because I’ve never had to yet.

 

[chidog]

Like I've said old stuff is for hobbyists not for using. D8s and D9s with conventional tracks are now antiques. And priced out of this world. Just nuts.

 

[631G]

After some calls to different aftermarket suppliers I went ahead and bought two new heads. They weren’t too bad in comparison to what I was seeing from Cat. They cost right at $2,900/ea. they’re supposed to arrive next week.

 

[tctractors]

The 1/2" and 3/8" valves are common to find, that is 1 head running different valves to the other, if you change the guides you can fit what ever you want to run as both size guides and valves should be still able to find, the change in size was to reduce oil consumption through valve guide wear, the exhaust guides near always need changing, a common trick is to drill down through the guides to 5/8" to make them easy to press out as they can hang in tight, I tend to stick to the 1/2" stem valves as I always keep a few, the $2900 per head seems a bit high but it might be on the spot, the last head I had to find was £900 but that was 4 years ago, I might have just been lucky and had a cheap deal, don't fit those heads without stripping the oil coolers and cleaning out the gunk in the water side, as this is the possible cause of your head cracking, the other cause is incorrect shut down, this takes around 10 mins+, or running out of fuel when hard at work, anyone can spend $$$ but you would be a fool to do it twice as the heads don't crack without a reason???

 

[chidog]

Thats 2/3rds of total machine with blade and ripper, scrap value, course we never get full scrap value and then theres the work turning it into scrap.

 

[chidog]

Sorry but to me its sorta not smart to pay the over inflated prices on these 50 plus year old dozers, there is just so many hidden issues with them and then the parts issues. Its not like your purchasing a completely restored old collector car, its most likely very well used, and full of metal fatigue every where.

 

[631G]

Sorry but to me its sorta not smart to pay the over inflated prices on these 50 plus year old dozers, there is just so many hidden issues with them and then the parts issues. Its not like your purchasing a completely restored old collector car, its most likely very well used, and full of metal fatigue every where.

Chidog, I cannot make an argument against most of that you're pointing out. This machine is the definition of worn out and is very very tired iron.

However, the replacement of the same machine with a newer one makes little to no sense for what volume of earth we move on an annual basis (X<600K CY typ.). Paying $6K to keep this machine moving even if it is only another one or two steps closer to the trailer to go on to the scrap yard, is less than what I would pay for any decent enough D9N or newer machine to do the same task of pushing pans through the cut. Would I love to have and want a newer one, absolutely. Can I justify the cost of it on paper, no. We lay more pipe and make more of our money there vs on the dirt. So consequently, most if not all of our excavators, small dozers and wheel loaders are new because we have to depend on them to stay up and running so the crews plow on ahead. I believe this is ultimately what you're driving at.

Even if we went with a newer high track, but still a used piece, we'd have the same likelihood of having a worn-out dozer to contend with. I've got nothing in the machine relative to what I can get out of its use in the cut. When it is totally used up, like needing to have a new U/C for example, we can just park/scrap it and walk away or go buy another one to put it back together and so on.

Regarding the hobbyists being the only folks who'd keep these old machines running, I would push back on that. If there weren't a market for these machines then companies like Costex and Regal wouldn't exist in the capacity they do. South America and other developing areas of the world are loaded with these older machines for many of the same reasons I list above and due to their generally being fairly simple to keep up due to lack of sensors and electronic systems to run the engines and transmissions etc.

These machines will all die off soon enough, but for now they do still have their place on the grade.

 

[631G]

The 1/2" and 3/8" valves are common to find, that is 1 head running different valves to the other, if you change the guides you can fit what ever you want to run as both size guides and valves should be still able to find, the change in size was to reduce oil consumption through valve guide wear, the exhaust guides near always need changing, a common trick is to drill down through the guides to 5/8" to make them easy to press out as they can hang in tight, I tend to stick to the 1/2" stem valves as I always keep a few, the $2900 per head seems a bit high but it might be on the spot, the last head I had to find was £900 but that was 4 years ago, I might have just been lucky and had a cheap deal, don't fit those heads without stripping the oil coolers and cleaning out the gunk in the water side, as this is the possible cause of your head cracking, the other cause is incorrect shut down, this takes around 10 mins+, or running out of fuel when hard at work, anyone can spend $$$ but you would be a fool to do it twice as the heads don't crack without a reason???

TC,

Pretty sure this failure was from improper shut down. I'm glad you pointed out the cleaning of the oil cooler. While its torn down I will ask our mechanic to pull it off and clean out.

 

[chidog]

I just wish the prices would drop, I'm always looking. The day the prices drop is the day I won't be able to climb into the seat.

 

[nicky 68a]

631G.
You make excellent observations in what you’re saying about the need to run older iron,especially D9 size machines.
Unless you’re buying a D9T with nowt more than 3000 hours on the clock,you’re potentially dicing with some expensive breakdowns.Its simply a gamble.Plain and simple.
On a positive note.I’m happy for you that it’s only cracked heads and not liner or block issues.Thats a different level of wallet rash if you need to go poking into the block.
As TC tractors says,coolers need cleaning up throughly and you may need to personally supervise the starting and shutting down operation of this machine yourself from now on.
It’s also vital not to let the beast run out of fuel.If it does,run the starter motor to circulate the water around the heads.Could be the difference between cracking heads.
These old D353 are not like any other engine in your fleet.They need starting in the morning and left on low idle for 20 minuits to warm up.That helps with tranny pressure too.
At break times,do not switch it off if you can help it.Only after 10 minuits of idling.
At night time,leave it running 20 minuits whilst you check over the scrapers or something or you will crack heads again.
People used to worry about damaging turbochargers on those early engines by shutting them down too fast.Personally,I was more worried about cracking heads,shocking liners or cracking blocks.
I have sacked men on the spot over this vandalism.

 

[.RC.]

It will be interesting to see in another 20 to 30 years the number of by then 40 year old electronically controlled machines still running compared to the number of mechanical hydraulically controlled machines of the same age running today.

Will machines be scrapped not because of mechanical issues, but rather electronic parts and wiring is no longer available and no aftermarket replacements due to software issues as well as these machines are run by microcontrollers that need programming with software.