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Crown

Danial Doherty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
94
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
I finally got bumped up from my mini grader to an 06 140H. I also got the chance to do my first street, something that i never got to do with my mini. Its in a small sub division and about 3/4 of a KM long! This is the first time that i ever had to put a crown in anything. Everything goes along quite well until i just about have the crown finished. when im on my last pass i always have a bit of gravel spilling back on the opposite side of my crown. How can i stop this from happening?? I spent a good half hour chasing this little bit of spill around.. Ive tried cutting it back to my curb line but always end up with a pile against the curb... in the end im out with a rake trying to level it off!! lol Any suggestions??
 

Grader4me

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
1,792
Location
New Brunswick, Canada
Can you be a little more specific Daniel? Start from the first pass that you do leading up to the problem that you're having. I'm not sure if its the position of your last windrow in relation to your crown, or just a blade tilt/angle issue.

Congrats on the upsize!

On edit..a good operator always carries a rake with him..lol
 
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Randy Krieg

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
260
Location
Arizona
Occupation
Test Pilot/Operator @ Caterpillar's Tucson Proving
Finishing Between Curbs and Building a Crown

Dan
I don’t know all your details (width of lanes, cross slope gradient, thickness of pavement), but I have finished a lot of grade between curbs so I know some of what you’re dealing with. I can only explain this in terms that I deal with on our projects. Why is there a difference from job to job, state to state? Some states allow or desire a parabolic/rounded crown. Here in Alaska we are not allowed to build a parabolic or rounded crowned, we can’t have any quarter crowns in our finished grade. This means we can not cheat or try to hide excess material between the face of the curb and centerline hubs or centerline crown. This is where a good grade inspector will eat your lunch and fail your grade. So why all the concern for a straight gradient cross slope up here? We have to plow snow off these roads several months of the year so the lanes have got be straight gradient cross slope so the moldboards of the graders will fit the lanes properly. It’s all relative when you understand the process. We are not allowed to break the screed on the paver to prevent thin spots in the mat, in other words they can’t pave a quarter crown in the driving lane. So to be sure the asphalt mat has the same thickness from the face of the curb to the centerline crown or curb to curb where it’s a divided highway or supered in a curve, the cross slope gradient has to be constant/straight. In other words damn near perfect. When you start trying to hide excess material (if the grade inspector doesn’t catch it due to his technique) then you’re going to get some thin spots in the mat, which will eventually fail. Most of our state inspectors use a 12 foot aluminum straight edge with a slopemeter mounted on it. Some of the older inspectors still use Swede rods so they can check profile grade as well as cross slope and I even know a few that still prefer to use a string line when inspecting finished grade between curbs. I still carry a set of Swede rods on the grader when I’m finishing and a 4 foot digital “Smartlevel”. I use to carry a string line too, but since we started using Automatic slopecontrol I haven’t felt the need anymore for the string line.
Back to dealing with the excess; this is why I love paddlewheel scrapers, I can leave my excess in a windrow halfway between the face of the curb and the crown so I can straddle it properly and pick it up. I’ve picked up excess with a loader or rubber tracked skidsteer, but the fastest and safest way is with a paddle wheel. The beauty of the paddlewheel is you lightly rub the cutting on the finished grade and it picks up only the excess and does not disturb the finished grade, that’s if it’s done right. I generally run the paddlewheel myself when picking up these final windrows unless I know the operator and can trust them. I’ve had too many think they have to put the cutting edge in the finished grade to pick things up or they load offset in the windrow too much and cause the machine to start leaning. Both are grounds for being RUN OFF!
Our screed men always use a probe when paving, it’s just a steel rod with an adjustable washer (2” in diameter) set for depth of the loose mix required. They are constantly probing the mat right behind the screed to be sure the depth/thickness is constant. If the mat is too thin towards the middle of their pass due to a quarter crown in the finished grade the washer will be up above the mat when they probe the fresh mat. If the screed man sees a lot of variance he generally tells the paving foreman. If the blade man can’t get it right a good inspector will fail the grade before paving ever gets started or the paving foreman/superintendent will send him packing. Finishing between curbs and building the proper crown is an art all its own. There’s even more to this story and if you’re really interested I’ll explain some more details/tricks when I have time. :drinkup
Regards, Randy
 

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Danial Doherty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
94
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
Wow that sounds like some pretty strict guidelines to follow there randy! They are not that picky around here! Well at least not on the street jobs i have been on, which is not that many!!! lol

I will try and explain what i was talking about a little better. Since i have never done a street before i had to ask the forman how his previous operator did it and it went like this. First Make sure you get your curb on grade first and dont worry about the crown. Once the curb is brought up to grade, watered and tamped, you then go on and string to see how low the crown is. Order trucks and spread them up the middle of the road and go on to build your crown from there. I would then start on one side of the road and try to get that side to look half decent ( get the crown somewhere to what i think looks like 2%) and pile any excess gravel on the opposite side of the crown. Then move to the opposite lane and try to make that side match the other.
Now this is where my problem kicks in... as i try to carry any extra material up that side of the road im always getting any extra spilling back out on the opposite side of the crown. meaning i have to go back and try to trim the first side over again to get rid of any extra... The road we were doing was around 24 feet wide and some side streets were around 21 if im not mistaken. so i always had some of my blade hanging off of the crown. Im not sure if this is making any sence at all but hopefully someone can figure out what i was doing ... Does anyone care to share how they go about doing a two lane street?

Sorry to randy and grader4me for taking so long to get back to your replys. Its been very busy as of late!!!
 

Grader4me

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
1,792
Location
New Brunswick, Canada
I Now this is where my problem kicks in... as i try to carry any extra material up that side of the road I'm always getting any extra spilling back out on the opposite side of the crown. meaning i have to go back and try to trim the first side over again to get rid of any extra... The road we were doing was around 24 feet wide and some side streets were around 21 if I'm not mistaken. so i always had some of my blade hanging off of the crown. I'm not sure if this is making any sense at all but hopefully someone can figure out what i was doing ... Does anyone care to share how they go about doing a two lane street?

Sorry to randy and grader4me for taking so long to get back to your replys. Its been very busy as of late!!!

Well..lets see now..Its hard Danial not being there to see exactly what you're doing wrong. I'll just take a stab at it here. Soooo...you have one side shaped to where you want it. To do the other side make sure that your windrow (excess material from the other side) is beyond the center (or peak of your crown) by a couple of feet.

Position the toe of your blade on the peak of your crown(center of road) and have your moldboard tilted back so the material will roll off well. On this pass I will angle my blade hard to insure that no material rolls off the toe. Make sure that you just lightly touch the peak of your crown with the toe. This is the pass that I see a lot of operators screw up on. To much pressure on the toe will flatten out your crown and you will have to start over. I seen operators that just straddle this windrow and end up flattening out the crown.

Again, I wouldn't have any of my blade hanging out beyond the peak of the crown. Just my 02 cents worth...
 

snapfruzen

Active Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
29
Location
Brisbane Australia
Occupation
Grader since 1976,working at a coal mine with scra
I don't know how much help this will be because every area has different methods, material and conditions. This is a rough idea of how its done downunder. Most residential streets are 2 1/2 % cross fall and get 25 mill,yes, thats only one inch of asphalt.
So, fill with top course gravel flush to the lip of the curb and to the top of the crown. Figure how high your crown will be and keep checking to make sure you have enough. If you don't have a slope meter, get a carpenter's level that you can put somewhere in front of you, then stop on a paved street and note where the bubble is.
Say your street is 3 metres from curb to crown (2.5%X3=75mill) your rough crown will be 75 mm higher than the lip of curb. So if the top of curb is 110 mm higher than the lip the rough crown will be 35mm (75+35=110) below the top of curb. We still use a string line here. Keep a rough trim going as the gravel trucks dump in front of you. Get the water truck to run a front wheel along the edge of the curb. Don't fill up the whole street, leave an area for the trimmings, maybe 20%.
Once you've made sure there is enough for the crown let the roller start, not before. If the crown is low anywhere, you can't simply add a few mill of material after its been rolled. You'll have to tine it up, wet it, add material, roll it, trim it, ouch!
So,now we have a street over filled 25mm. After rolling it should be 10 to 15 mm overfull.
If the roller driver is inexperienced, you'll have to instruct him, do not, do not, DO NOT, roll the crown down. When you have to go over the crown, turn the vibrator off. Roll right up to the curb but don't chip it. roll the h$$L OUT OF IT.
This is sort of a rule of thumb for filling anything, over fill it, compact it, trim it.
Time to start trimming.
Change to a new set of blades.
Have your ground crew (stringers) measure 3m from one curb (always measure from the same side) and put a paint mark on the crown. Pull a string tight across and measure how much needs to be trimmed off. Because we're now looking for finish level, we'll be looking for 60mm below the string. ( 35rough +25 asphalt =60) Have them put this figure on either side of the crown mark. Articulate so that you can look straight down the crown and the toe of the blade will just nick the crown marks. Roll your blade right forward, 1st gear, low idle. Make a couple of cuts. Have the water truck give it a light spray, have the roller make a couple pass's. Trim,water, roll.
When you have a fair amount of trimmings have them picked up and dumped at the end where you didn't fill. Often you might just have a bobcat to pick up trimmings so go to another area and trim there while you're waiting. Alternate back and forth. Have fun. Simple heh.
In Oz there are no quarter crowns on residential streets. When the council comes for their pre seal inspection, they put a 25mm block about a foot (300mm) from the crown, a string is pulled across this block to the lip of curb and another 25mm block is used to slide under the string. Of course the council doesn't care if you're too deep but at $150 a ton the contractor sure does. Because the asphalt is so thin, 25mm, if you were to average just 5mm too deep (less than a quarter inch), that's a 20% overspread. Like Randy said, there's no place to hide.
Hope this doesn't confuse the matter too much. As my Australian Lady said when I moved here "It's not right or wrong, it's just different".
 

grandpa

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
1,979
Location
northern minnesota
Daniel.... every grader operator does things a little different but I think your problem is a little more basic than what the other guys are telling you ( which they have all done a good job). I think what your having problems with is pushing too much base up to the centerline on your second lane. Always keep your base back a couple feet from the centerline coming off your heal. When you turn around and pick up that windrow with your toe an amount of material will backfeed up your slope to build your crown. A lot of beginning operaters tend to push material too close to the edge and thus end up with too much base being along the curb or crown. Pay attention to the amount of base you are backfeeding and this will make your graderman life a whole lot easier. I hope this is as clear as mud. ha Good luck. This method seems like it takes more passes, but in the end its actually faster and a whole lot less stressful.
 

Danial Doherty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
94
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
thanks guys!!!! Frist of all i want to say sorry for taking so long to get back to you guys! I know im slack! I never had a chance to do any more streets this season and Its lay off time right now and i dont have to worry about crowns anymore till the spring, thank god!
When we start back up im going to have to dig up this thread and re read all this great info.
I wish i could take one of you guys with me for a day and show you exaclty what i mean! its such a simple concept when your looking at it, but to try and explain it in words and have it make sence is near impossible! but once again, thanks for taking time out of your day to help out the new guy!!!
 
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tripper_174

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Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
173
Location
Manitoba, Canada
Occupation
Heavy Equipment Operator Trainer
Tons of good info here. One more little thing that helps is a good working relationship with your packer operator. I liked to have the operator run the wobblies/vibrator along the windrow. Makes it easier to follow and establish your grade. If you work as a team, particularly during the last few passes it makes for pretty easy job.

In the day before inspectors got sharp..not to say it still doesn't happen...many tons of asphalt were saved by padding the area between the crown and curb with a little extra base gravel.
 

buddy605

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
188
Location
halifax
Occupation
Engineering tech/ survey
big difference out here tripper is packer operators are not a speciality here it is just a matter of putting a body in a seat. I find it funny when they are packing in full speed and think they are doing great. Especially with the company daniel is with they run a training school , these students graduate from a rake to a roller.
 
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snapfruzen

Active Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
29
Location
Brisbane Australia
Occupation
Grader since 1976,working at a coal mine with scra
Oops! Sorry guys. I got the sequence wrong in my blurb here on trimming. It should be water, trim, roll, not water,roll, trim. If you water and then try to roll right away material will likely pick up on the roller drum. If you water and then trim , your trimmings will have better moisture. It;s been about three years since I've done any of this, must have been having a senior moment.
 
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