Cross slope for Motorgrader

[biggrader]

I am looking for a cross slope system for my motorgrader. When it comes to electronic machine controls, I am as green as grass. So please let me know what you are using and why/why not you like it. thanks.

 

[Bigironjim]

I have been ivolved with the Cat Accugrade sytems on Cat ARO (Accugrade ready Option) H & M blades for almost five years, and the Trimble equivilant, (GCS500, GCS600) on other machines, slightly less. I have found them basically trouble free and durable.
The cross slope will allow YOU to control one end of the blade manually, and automatically drive the other end of the blade to a preset, adjustable slope. The slope can be "swapped" allowing you to turn around and match on the pass back. and the automatics can also be switched from side to side.
On a properly calibrated machine, the slope remains accurate even if the circle is rotated or blade side shifted.. Ther is a little error if the cuircle is shifted out from under the mainframe.

 

[Bigironjim]

The system can be used to check existing slopes, by floating the blade down and pushing one button, the system will read an existing slope. example. Crowning an existing road. Roll up 100', float blade, once the dust clears, press one button and read grade,(4%) roll back 50' float and read (3%) roll back into intersection, float and read( less than 1%) set display to 1%, start cut and bump the increment switch at itervals to match the grades you just measured.

 

[Bigironjim]

Problems I've encountered...
Most common are machines that have been improperly calibrated, IF you want accurate performnce, you need accurate calibration.
On county machines, the operators want to turn the blade around 180', with the cutting edge to the rear of the machine. The harness through the circle has NO swivel, and will ony take SO much rotating.
Debris coming up through circle, over moldboard, or operators using blade slope sensor as a step, have damaged harnesses.
Sometimes there are expectations of +/- .01' work from a machine with a machine with .03' total wear in blade slides, circle wear plates, lift cylinder balls and trunions. Make sure your machine is a good host before spending the money.

 

[Bigironjim]

Calibration is a simple 3 step operation... Center, square, and level the blade, either on a flat level slab, or use a 4' spirit level on relatively flat ground. The display will basically walk you through it. Calibrate "A", rotate machine 180' and calibrate"B", rotate machine 180' and calibrate "C". After you have done it a couple of times, it will take you longer to find your level and kick the dirt off the blade, than to do the calibration itself.

 

[biggrader]

Thanks BigIronjim, What I was thinking was the GCS500 or maybe 600, or equivelent. What control box are/were you using.

 

[Bigironjim]

All the 2D (cross slope, laser, sonic) H series (and Deere) used the Trimble CB420, yellow box. Its no longer in production, but still available NOS and used. It is ROCK SOLID and nearly teenager proof (ha!). The Cat CD610 (Cat only, and I think its discontinued also) used on the M series grader and 2D dozers, could not take the exposure that comes from the construction site, dust would get in around the buttons or "soft Keys" as they called them, add a little moisture and the button (s) were being held down by the resulting mud. I have been around them that had a LOT of hours on them with no problems, but a few in power plant dust reclaim pits, and some in stabilization settings that had low hours and were sent in for repair. I would avoid a CD610 sytem unless it was thrown in on the deal.

 

[Bigironjim]

The Cat CD700 / Trimble CB430 Has ALL the bells and whistles EXCEPT light bars, I believe all the CD700 were sold as 3D/ Automatics enabled but the
CB430 box was sold with all the options as accessories. Meaning there are SOME out there that are INDICATE ONLY! You would have to purchase the Automatic enable key to get the cross slope to function auto on one side.

 

[Bigironjim]

Both of the current displays, C450, CB460, are offered to dealers "NAKED",for stock, and they load the 2D and auto keys on them. Both of these displays are upgradeable to 3D, if desired, have integrated lightbars, so the install is light, and it ALL comes out , if you are looking to put it in another machine. Before you buy either display, ask to see them in operation. I live a lot of my life by the "less is more" mantra, but not so in this case, I like the bigger display on the CB460.
IF I am remembering correctly, the GCS500 is a Cross slope ONLY set up, there are NO "clicks", the Amphenol connectors for laser or sonic. IF SO, spring for the GCS600 with the full harness, you may want to rent a laser kit for a big pad, or long slopes. Also helps with resale when that time comes.

Heres a couple of links, compare the displays, the multi function button pad is the same on both, for a size of display comarison.
http://www.trimble.com/construction/heavy-and-highway/CB450-Control-Box.aspx?dtID=overview&
http://www.trimble.com/construction...control/CB460-Control-Box.aspx?dtID=overview&

 

[Bigironjim]

I have come to the conclusion that machine control is a good thing.
Make sure you are comfortable with the person training you. Ask him "how do I ***( whatever you need to start the next job) " and have HIM show you . Ask yourself as well as the trainer "what am I going to do to make it*** (whatever). IF you dont take advantage of his experienc while he is there, you may have to learn from the school of hard knocks. If you dont feel its working CORRECTLY, have him Fix it. HE CAN DO IT ! If you have any questions, post them and I will see if I can help you out.
These 2D systems are only limited by your imagination. I have seen some amazing work from a cross slope machine. A couple of hands have used the increment/ decrement switch to change slope and produce verticle or superelevated curves. Also have seen 3D (all flat planes) done with a laser system.

 

[biggrader]

Thanks for all the info, definately gives me some ideas.

 

[Bigironjim]

Biggrader> did you ever get a cross slope system? If so, hows it working?

 

[biggrader]

Not yet. Our local deere dealer is a topcon dealer so I got a price from him.waiting to hear back from the trimble dealer..

 

[biggrader]

The cross slope will be on a deere grader so that is why I asked the local dealer, which happens to be topcon. Be nice to have 1 service contact if I have problems. Although from what I have read, trimble is the way to go. We'll see when I get the quote back from the trimble dealer. I dont need this system until next spring, but thought that I would start looking and asking questions.

 

[Davvinciman]

Most of the cheapskate contractors I know (myself included) use a good level mounted in the cab for reference, the bubble we have developed in our fannies and our naturally fine grade laser eyeballs (and a good grade checker). Our course, if you don't have them, you can buy them for a price (plus the daily set up and the upkeep). Guess I'm staying old school now.

 

[biggrader]

davvinciman, bladed many years that way, but as I get older it seems like it takes so long to recalibrate the bubble in the butt after a good fart.

 

[Davvinciman]

davvinciman, bladed many years that way, but as I get older it seems like it takes so long to recalibrate the bubble in the butt after a good fart.

Yah, that chili bean grade can be a little tough to sell without a Cal Worthington cowboy hat on (he was a local car dealer). I'm not saying laser and crossfall doesn't have its uses, especially when those variable transitions come up in a roadway, but it seems like we have lost a lot of the other training that went with getting to that position in the first place. And that having a good eye and bubble meant something.
Hey, I'm just living in the past a little bit.

 

[RDG]

I have been using a Topcon system 5 on a 12H with a sonic tracker for final trim work, saves a lot of time grade checking etc both in the final trim and doing subgrades, no problems with it so far. Cheers RDG.

 

[Davvinciman]

I have been using a Topcon system 5 on a 12H with a sonic tracker for final trim work, saves a lot of time grade checking etc both in the final trim and doing subgrades, no problems with it so far. Cheers RDG.

I didn't mean to say that they don't work, just that you have to keep up on your machine's pins and brass to do the tighter tolerances they want on some projects. But it won't tell you how to get that dirt out of a cul de sac without tearing up your pads or how big of a windrow you should push up before it will choke that 623. Or even how close to your cut off you should come to keep the spillage from a 637 boiling over on to your "just finished" parkway when he is gutting the street for you. A GPS can tell you how far you are from the curbface but not tell you how to move the dirt to get down to the point so that it can make the grade for you. And blades that do that kind of duty often don't have a tight enough blade to make auto control worth it.
I find that having a few extra bodies around for looking at things with a different set of eyes pays off in more ways than just saving the money for not having to pay a guy when there is a little slack time. Because once a GPS or laser tracker can do that, they won't need me anyway. Or maybe I'll be in that office with them (but I doubt it).

 

[140Monster]

we do roads that have sometime 3 controlled layers all with survey verification and compaction and depth tests, if the plan says 130mm thicks layer and it gets tested and its 110 we gota rip it up and go again...so having machine control from subgrade, then sub base, then 2 layer base, makes it easy to control. not so much for quality of work as many grader drivers know you dont rely on the machine guidance to do that, but just making sure of the corect layers and lines it is a handy piece of gear we have Trimble GCS900 on a 140m