Case 580K dead instrument cluster

[newdesertfox]

I have a more of a beginner mechanic question, I have a phase 3 580k thats new to me, and by new I mean I bought it, worked it for 2 days and almost every cylinder on the machine blew out under load and other issues that caused it to be in the shop for 4 months as of now. The entire instrument cluster was dead, and I asked the tech to look at it to find out what might be shorting it out (I absolutely hate running machines with dead gauges and not knowing what its doing, call it a pet peeve lol, one thing I really enjoyed on the newer machines) Anyways he looked at it and said all the gauges are shot, and it looks like someone messed with them before trying to fix them. So some questions, A, I looked at OEM clusters and choked on the prices for 5 case gauges... are there any recommendations for non OEM clusters or gauges? I personally don't like the look of old case gauges so thought of just redoing the whole cluster and making it look nice but its not something Im familiar with. B, are there any clusters that are non OEM that are less then 1.4k? And C how much of a hassle is it to rewire or put in a new harness on the 580K's and Im guessing that just pulling the gauges open and installing new stepper motors isn't an option on older machines like that? Thanks for any help or input, always trying to learn and I've found people with more experience then me are much better then the manuals lol

 

[franklin2]

I have an old 480c, the gauges don't work. I took it apart and it's much like the old cars, a bunch of crumbling plastic and copper circuit traces that have come loose and failing.

There is a thread on here somewhere I believe, that has a picture were a guy took a aluminum plate, cut round holes in it, and installed mechanical gauges. He did re-use the factory mechanical tach, but all the other gauges are aftermarket universal type. Of course all this is custom made. Doubt you will find something you can drop in.

 

[thepumpguysc]

e-backhoeparts.com
Dale might be able to help ya out. Good people..
You can get aftermarket gauges on ebay in sets.. CHEAP.

 

[Tinkerer]

You are not alone with that problem. Here is a link to an informative thread. The poster named AJ is about as knowledgeable as anyone can get with anything Case.
http://www.ssbtractor.com/wwwboard/view_all.cgi?bd=case&msg=15786
But, maybe Sheepsfoot, Melben or Alrman will comment here too.

 

[Delmer]

When you say "stepper motors" do you know more about this Case than I do, or not? Serious question, not joking with you.

I don't think there are stepper motors in any common gauges. They're all more or less small amp meters with different labeling. Your senders on the engine/trans/fuel are variable resistors that ground the signal wire from the gauge. Take the fuel gauge wire off the sender, the gauge goes to empty. Ground the wire and the gauge goes to full (if the power is on). Basically all the gauges/senders work like that, so it is possible to fix the gauges if you can get them apart. That being said, the gauges are most likely NOT ALL bad, more likely is wiring issues, and possibly a bad gauge or sender or two, but not all bad gauges. So you can probably replace just the gauges, or just the bad gauges and use most of the existing senders. Any of those three Case experts would probably know for sure.

The other question is did the tech care as much about your gauges working as you or I do? Probably not, he probably didn't like futzy electrical projects and didn't think you'd want to pay his rate for four hours of diagnostics, so he said they're all shot. You can test them as described above, and by tracing the voltage in and out of the gauges.

Mechanical gauges are the other option, but I'd stick with electric gauges if you do replace 'em.

 

[newdesertfox]

Delmer, no Im sure I do not, this is my first Case and Im still learning the mechanical ropes of construction/diesel machinery, I have some experience on newer hoes that were JD's but whenever anything went wrong on that just called in the company's repair service. My dad was an auto mechanic so thats about as close to familiar as it gets. My frame of reference was bad GMC clusters from 03-06, and often when their gauges went it was due to stepper motors so I was was guessing that other machines gauges may use them as well but it sounds like I may be way off. From my limited experience I would say that 3 gauges are cooked at least, they permanently are reading various settings, my tach is always saying that Im at 2k RMP, my fuel gauge says Im 7/8th full, and my battery gauge says Im getting a good charge, which to me would indicate that whatever thing controls the visual bar is locked or stuck at whatever those settings are but thats just an educated guess. I just purchased the service manual for the 580k phase 3s so Im reading through it trying to learn more about the systems but I'll def give your advice a go. I know there is a pretty serious short in the system as batteries die very fast in it so now have a kill switch and non of the warning lights work (found that out when I blew another hose last week >.< ) but the reverse warning horn will kick in about 33% of the time Im in reverse. Once I get her back from my current job my hope is to run through what you said to try and also open up the machine and try and start replacing wires one at a time to resolve the short, might take me a while but doing them one or two at a time shouldn't be over whelming and gives me time to learn vs just ripping everything out and having to fix it all right away. If I can't get the gauges to work I know another guy whos a mechanic who said he can hopefully walk me through calibrating new gauges to it, what I would love was one of those Case central instrument panels if I remember what they were called lol, those looked quite nice. I'll give ebackhoeparts a look as well, never heard of them before but sounds like a great option

 

[franklin2]

It all depends on what style of gauge cases uses. The two main styles are the bi-metal type that actually heat a bi-metallic piece to move the needle, and the magnetic coil type with two coils that create a magnetic field that fights for control of the needle. The bi-metallic type always go to zero when the key is turned off. The magnetic type can be anywhere in the scale and may or may not stay there when the key is turned off.

If I were the mechanic looking at your gauges, I would also want to replace the whole thing. I would then be guaranteed it would work correctly and not get a lot of warranty call backs. Working at a shop and fiddling with stuff at home are two different things.

 

[Tinkerer]

That short / drain on the batteries may be the cause of your gauge problem. Find and fix that first if you can.

 

[melben]

I have a more of a beginner mechanic question, I have a phase 3 580k thats new to me, and by new I mean I bought it, worked it for 2 days and almost every cylinder on the machine blew out under load and other issues that caused it to be in the shop for 4 months as of now. The entire instrument cluster was dead, and I asked the tech to look at it to find out what might be shorting it out (I absolutely hate running machines with dead gauges and not knowing what its doing, call it a pet peeve lol, one thing I really enjoyed on the newer machines) Anyways he looked at it and said all the gauges are shot, and it looks like someone messed with them before trying to fix them. So some questions, A, I looked at OEM clusters and choked on the prices for 5 case gauges... are there any recommendations for non OEM clusters or gauges? I personally don't like the look of old case gauges so thought of just redoing the whole cluster and making it look nice but its not something Im familiar with. B, are there any clusters that are non OEM that are less then 1.4k? And C how much of a hassle is it to rewire or put in a new harness on the 580K's and Im guessing that just pulling the gauges open and installing new stepper motors isn't an option on older machines like that? Thanks for any help or input, always trying to learn and I've found people with more experience then me are much better then the manuals lol

Be very suspicious of anyone who says the stepper motors are shot, I've seen and worked on hundreds and those machines never had stepper motors, I would let someone else look at the dash, I have had bad circuit lines in the PC dash that I have used fine wire to repair. In my opinion you are getting the wool pulled over your eyes by someone who would like you to think he knows something!! The gauges themselves are rarely at fault, an occasional sender but I believe that dash could be saved.

 

[hammertime]

Ditto what these guys are saying. Find another place to service your machine if you end up not wanting to tackle it. I took my gannon in to have the frog rebuilt and skins added to the side. Super simple job. Owner of the highly recommended shop explained in detail all the names of each part of a gannon like he was the gannon Expert. When I went to pick it up...the new blade mounting holes were not level and the skins looked like scrap welded to the side. Could have almost paid for a new box blade with what I spent. I was so over this guy by the end I bought a Miller airpak and do my own welding repairs and fab work.

 

[alrman]

Look closely at the printed circuit tabs, where the main plug is installed at the dash.
Sometimes they get bent or broken, thus creating an open circuit.

Disconnect each sender & ground the wire & see if the gauges respond.
If gauges do not respond, test continuity between the wire at sender unit & the other end of the wire at the plug for the dash.

Is the alternator actually charging? It controls the tacho operation.

There is the a large connector under the floor, for the main harness, which can get corrosion issues.

 

[franklin2]

Look closely at the printed circuit tabs, where the main plug is installed at the dash.
Sometimes they get bent or broken, thus creating an open circuit.

Sometimes these copper traces will come loose from the clear mylar and get crunched and not make good contact with the plug-in like was mentioned above. I have found if you are careful, you can straighten these back out and use a little superglue and glue them back to the mylar to get the cluster going again. Very delicate fiddly piece for a backhoe that sits outside in all kinds of weather and conditions. Not one of their better ideas really.

 

[newdesertfox]

I really appreciate all the input, I know this mechanic has lost about 6k in labor over the last year trying to do jobs that he was unable to source parts for (Duetz is a pain to get around here) and I bet anything after hearing everyones thoughts he was afraid of it being more hassle then he thought was worth and he couldn't guarantee it would work so easier to just say it was all broken. The machine is actually broken again thanks to some supply hoses from the pump and cylinders blowing out so maybe I'll have some spare time while Im working on learning that to try out everyone's suggestions and see what I find out. Would have been really nice to have the panel up, blew the main hose off the pump while digging and no alarms went off and I found out I was emptying the reserve at a gallon every 5 seconds when the dipper stopped responding >.< so def an interest to figure it all out lol

 

[newdesertfox]

This is the cluster with the battery disconnected

 

[Coy Lancaster]

I have a more of a beginner mechanic question, I have a phase 3 580k thats new to me, and by new I mean I bought it, worked it for 2 days and almost every cylinder on the machine blew out under load and other issues that caused it to be in the shop for 4 months as of now. The entire instrument cluster was dead, and I asked the tech to look at it to find out what might be shorting it out (I absolutely hate running machines with dead gauges and not knowing what its doing, call it a pet peeve lol, one thing I really enjoyed on the newer machines) Anyways he looked at it and said all the gauges are shot, and it looks like someone messed with them before trying to fix them. So some questions, A, I looked at OEM clusters and choked on the prices for 5 case gauges... are there any recommendations for non OEM clusters or gauges? I personally don't like the look of old case gauges so thought of just redoing the whole cluster and making it look nice but its not something Im familiar with. B, are there any clusters that are non OEM that are less then 1.4k? And C how much of a hassle is it to rewire or put in a new harness on the 580K's and Im guessing that just pulling the gauges open and installing new stepper motors isn't an option on older machines like that? Thanks for any help or input, always trying to learn and I've found people with more experience then me are much better then the manuals lol

Did you get your problem solved?

 

[newdesertfox]

Somewhat, had a friend of mine who was an army helicopter mechanic who specialized in electronics help look over it and came to the conclusion that about 75% of the wires in the machine were either eaten, destroyed or rusted away, most of the senders are bad, and 2 or 3 panels were shot, determined when time and money allows to simply redo the entire electronic system but as of yet havn't had the time or resources to get around to it

 

[Coy Lancaster]

Somewhat, had a friend of mine who was an army helicopter mechanic who specialized in electronics help look over it and came to the conclusion that about 75% of the wires in the machine were either eaten, destroyed or rusted away, most of the senders are bad, and 2 or 3 panels were shot, determined when time and money allows to simply redo the entire electronic system but as of yet havn't had the time or resources to get around to it

Good luck