Case 580 SK won't start...

[chansey]

Do you have the Case/Cummins 4 cyl engine in your backhoe? If it is, an open injector line should have a good squirt of fuel. If it just drips you still have an air leak.

The only thing that can go wrong from prolonged non-use and cold temps, is that the fuel can gel and cause a lot of issues trying to prime and start the engine. Some times it gets gummy and depending on the additives can clog the screen in the mechanical pump and only able to pass a small amount of fuel to the injection pump.

 

[gabtrac]

The engine is 4-390 Cummins.

Where is the screen in the mechanical pump you mention?

Tomorrow I'm going to follow "thepumpguy"'s advice and get back to y'all.

Thanks,
a

 

[chansey]

I recently repowered a Trojan loader with the same engine here on HE

https://www.heavyequipmentforums.co...er-Repower-with-Cummins-4BT&highlight=sancobg

The engine had sat for quite some time and towards the end of the post is a step by step process for getting the engine primed and started.

The screen is in the bottom of the pump plunger. remove the rubber boot and unscrew the the plunger from the body---do it slowly, there's a heavy spring in there. Mine was clogged from debris that had dried and was matted on the screen---only a trickle of fuel was getting by the screen

 

[gabtrac]

Thank you!
I'll give everything a whirl, and will advise on progress.
Much appreciated!

 

[gabtrac]

Ok, got the lift pump off.
I think I might have a different system than yours Chansey.
The pump doesn't come apart.
But it seems to be pumping fine, when I put my finger on the inlet or outlet I get pretty good pressure when I pump the lever.
I looked at your "trojan" link and it looks like you have a different injector pump - mine is the Lucas.

I'll re-install the lift pump and move on to the directions given by "thepumpguysc".
Thanks!

 

[thepumpguysc]

Does your engine have an intake heater?? grid type that sits over the air intake pipe.. its square and has a + wire going to it..
If so, it might help w/ starting..
If you don't know what it looks like, just search 4bt intake heater. some have them, some don't..

 

[gabtrac]

Still won't start...
Re-cap
1991-ish Case 580SK (turbo diesel) w/Cummins 4-390 engine and Lucas Injector pump - no intake heater - not a BT (I don't think)

- Left to sit (now 2 months) just before freezing (-5' C) weather set in.
- Was running ok when it was left.
- Changed starter motor - sucking too many amps.
- removed and checked fuel solenoid - working
- installed block heater (has now been on for two days)
- changed fuel filters - in-line and canister
- removed and checked lift pump - pumping well - good squirting at filter banjo fitting, and bleed screw on injector pump.
- bled all lines many times and again this afternoon - as per "thepumpguysc" right up to the injector lines - fuel drops coming out at each.
- opened throttle full
- removed large intake pipe between air intake filter and turbo and shot in heated air and a few squirts of ether.
- She kicked a couple of times but still no go.

Any further advice or thoughts would be truly appreciated - it feels so close... yet not...
Thanks,
a

 

[Delmer]

So is it kicking at all on it's own, or just with the ether? and is it smoking on it's own? If it's not smoking then pull an injector and check the spray.

Does it seem to be cranking as fast as a new starter and warm batteries should? you did warm up the batteries right? One good warm one is enough.

Any chance there's some drag on the hydraulic pump from a sticking control lever?

Was the fuel relatively fresh 2 months ago? not using bio diesel are you?

I think that is a 4bt, the t is for turbo, which I think a "super" has, and you mentioned also.

 

[gabtrac]

Hi Delmer,
- It's kicking on it's own and w/ether.
- It seems to bee cranking at the same speed it was when functioning properly, maybe a bit faster. I don't have a good way to warm the batteries...maybe I should bring them inside to charge...
- I released pressure on all the hydraulic valves and even tried starting while holding the clutch cut out button down. - BUT!! when I first turn her over on two occasions lately, there's a very slight roll forward of the whole rig, like it's in gear for a split second, but it doesn't do it on subsequent tries on the same day, and it's subtle.
- The fuel was fresh from the local co-op station. I had been running the machine a lot and topping up every 2-3 days.
- re: BT, ok thanks.

There's one other thing that just came to mind...
Previous to this recent issue, whenever I foolishly ran out of fuel I'd bleed two screws on the Lucas pump - one above the other.
When this issue started I was looking through other forums and found a Heavy Equipment thread (see photo, reply #9, How to prime Case 580K....) that said I didn't have to bleed/use the top screw - so I haven't.
I'm wondering just this minute if maybe that entry was wrong and i should have bled the upper screw and that's why it wont start after going through all of the above provided advice...?
I'm feeling stupider by the minute...

 

[Willie B]

Fuel gauge on mine is erratic. If it says 1/2 I know I need to fill. I record on window hourmeter reading. At twenty hours, I need fuel. I've been known to treat it like a ticking time bomb, hoping it'll be my son who has to fill. Unaware of this, he doesn't care if it runs out. Result: I run out perhaps once a year.

I open all the return banjo bolts on the top of the injectors, crank until foam stops, and nothing flows but liquid. It has been suggested to take an injector out, see if it sprays. This would confirm fuel, pump pressure, injector function. If injectors are functioning, then timing, compression, or air is the problem. Air is the least likely culprit. If it recently ran well with little smoke, and adequate power, piston rings aren't likely your problem. Valves, on the other hand, can stick open with lack of use. Check compression, or get someone who can. Open valves would allow the starter to seem extra vigorous. Timing would only change if the pump position loosened, or coupler broke.

A competent mechanic will figure it out quickly.

Willie

 

[gabtrac]

Any advice on how to pull an injector?
I don't have the special tool and don't want to break anything...

Thanks all,
a

 

[rubberfish]

I'm not a mechanic but the machine doesn't run on ether.
So how is all this fuel line bleeding going to help matters?

 

[gabtrac]

Well, from what I've learned here and in the field, when a diesel doesn't run you troubleshoot your way through all the variables starting with fuel delivery.The only way to check for that is to undo the lines, filters etc to make sure there's fuel. When you open said lines, you need to purge the air out.
So to answer your question... it's required.
Ether is used as a starting "aid", also called starter fluid. You are correct the machine does not run on ether.

 

[rubberfish]

I'm not trying to be a **** here but the machine does not require an injector or diesel fuel
to run on ether, which your machine currently does not do. Bleed away I guess.

I told you I'm not a mechanic, just some guy thinking outside the box.

 

[gabtrac]

I haven't pulled an injector yet, as was earlier suggested because I don't have the appropriate tool (don't want to wreck an injector) and wanted to make absolutely sure everything else before it in the system was working as best I could.
Now that I've seen reasonably good flow right up to the injector lines, my next move is to remove an injector, check for spray and then either way do a compression test.
A local mechanic friend was helping me, but he took of for someplace warmer. He thought is was due to the cold weather. But that was all before I installed the block heater.
Anyway, any help with removing the injectors would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
a

 

[gabtrac]

Rubberfish, I don't have any desire to get into it with you, but perhaps you need to understand diesel engines a bit more before offering advice.
Perhaps a more experienced member would correct me, but I've never seen a diesel engine that doesn't have injectors.
I have no knowledge of any heavy equipment engine in existence that runs on ether.
Best,
a

 

[Delmer]

I'm not a mechanic but the machine doesn't run on ether.
So how is all this fuel line bleeding going to help matters?

What Fish is saying is that the engine SHOULD run on ether, quite well actually as long as your finger is accurate with the metering. Most likely you could give it more ether than you've used already. Crank the engine and when it's turning over as fast as it will, give it a shot, then a bigger shot if it doesn't start, keep giving bigger shots until it starts, or clunks and stalls the starter, that's too much.

Do you have your batteries inside charging in a warm spot? I'd try that with ether before pulling an injector also. Hard to say not being there, let us know what happens.

I don't know what style of injectors that has. Some you can grab the body with a vice grip and they'll usually wiggle out.

 

[gabtrac]

Hi Delmer,

Thanks again.
"The engine should run on ether" . Wow, that sounds like trouble, but what do I know. It helps her fire, but I would never try to run it on ether.
I've been feeling like I'm giving it too much ether... based on other posts and advice. But will give it another try tomorrow.
Yup, took the advice and brought all the batteries in for the night. In a warm spot on trickle charge.

re: injector removal. I suppose what I really should have asked is what NOT to do when pulling the injectors.

Sorry rubberfish I didn't understand what you meant.

Thanks again.,
a

 

[thepumpguysc]

There are several videos on utube that show *tricks* for getting them out w/o the proper tool.
I have seen on SEVERAL occasions where the tip will stick open and allow the compression back thru the injector and into the fuel system.
I think the inj. removal is in order at this point..
Just google> 4B injector removal..

 

[thepumpguysc]

I'v seen where people have loosened the hold down nut with just a couple of threads holding the inj. down and using the engine compression, blow them out.
Cranking the engine over w/ the loosened hold down.
I have to say, THIS IS NOT the recommended procedure, but it sometimes works in a jam..
Do yourself a favor and loosen the hold down and then spray some penetrating oil around the injector.. GIVE IT TIME TO WORK..