Case 450 hard starting and smokes

[Paramajic4]

I brought this over from a different forum, somehow had it listed in excavators
Another issue that I have with this machine that i would like to get a handle on before I mess with the timing is an issue with cold starting. I should probably give little history on the machine first. This machine has about 4000 hours on it. I bought it as somewhat of a "project". The machine had been sitting for a about a year because, according to the previous owner, the injector pump went out. They removed the pump and took it in for rebuild. Subsequently, the rebuild shop "misplaced" the pump and ended up replacing it with a new (not rebuilt) unit. The previous owner never installed the pump and decided to get rid of the machine. That's where I come in. I purchased the unit and had the local Case dealer install the pump. They installed it, got it running and did a systems check. They recommended some injector cleaner and went on their way. Another part of the story is that the previous owner had bypassed the control unit and the ignition switch. They ran a hot wire to the fuel solenoid and left the other (I think it has to do with cold starting) wire on the pump disconnected. I have since replaced the control unit a corrected the wiring issues.

The current issue is that the machine is incredibly difficult to start cold. Once it starts, it will idle weakly and the throttle has no effect on the engine speed. It will not throttle up. It will do this for about five plus minutes. Eventually, if I turn it off, recycle the heating element and start it, will power up and run fine.

I have done the following to the unit:
Replaced the injectors
Replaced the fuel filter
Drained the tank and put in fresh fuel
Changed the oil and filter
Replaced the air cleaner
Checked the turbo (shaft is tight, spins freely and not wet oil residue)

Thoughts/suggestions

Thanks

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[thepumpguysc]

How about some inj pump #’s or a model or even a picture.??
U say u have a problem to fix before the timing..
The timing will cause your hard start problems..

 

[Paramajic4]

Does anyone know where I can get an engine manual for this machine? I have the shop manual for the machine but it dosen't cover the engine. It is an 445T/M3. Case lists one for the 445T/M2 but not sure if it the same engine. Would like to adjust the valves but can't find the procedure anywhere.

 

[alrman]

The "other wire" on the pump is for advancing the pump timing when cold. It should be also connected to an engine coolant sensor located in the cylinder head, near the injector pump.

 

[Paramajic4]

The "other wire" on the pump is for advancing the pump timing when cold. It should be also connected to an engine coolant sensor located in the cylinder head, near the injector pump.

So are there 3 wires? One for the fuel solenoid, one for the KSB on the pump and another for a coolant sensor. I only found 2

 

[alrman]

I only have a schematic for the same setup on the earlier 4B engine which uses the same injector pump.
The 450 series 3 parts book shows the same set up with the cold start advance solenoid.

Shows one power wire which splits -
one to the fuel shut off solenoid
& the other to the coolant sender unit then to the cold start advance (timing heater)

 

[Paramajic4]

I only have a schematic for the same setup on the earlier 4B engine which uses the same injector pump.
The 450 series 3 parts book shows the same set up with the cold start advance solenoid.

Shows one power wire which splits -
one to the fuel shut off solenoid
& the other to the coolant sender unit then to the cold start advance (timing heater)


View attachment 303790

Thanks for the schematic. I checked it out it seems to be working as it should

 

[Paramajic4]

Finally found a manual for this engine. The pump does have slots in the pump to allow for adjustment. I loosened the three nuts to rotate the pump but was not able to move the pump. Referring back to the manual, it references a bolt the prevents shaft rotation. I have not seen this mentioned in any forum posts, anything to look out for? Also, will advancing the timing help or make worse cold starting? Also checked the KSB, it is getting power when the engine is cold. The engine starts easily when the block heater has been on overnight.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Using the KSB terminology tells me u have a Bosch VE pump..& the lock timing bolt..
The timing bolt is on the mounting flange about the 8:00 position, looking at the side of the pump..
U don’t need to touch that bolt unless you’re removing the pump from the engine.
There is a way to check the timing but u need a special timing rig..and u have to know what the dimension is.. it’s probably on the tag that’s on the timing cover..(LPC)
Moving the pump will be extremely hard with all the steel lines on it..
You can loosen them up a couple of turns and try again..
DONT FORGET ABOUT THE ONE ON THE BRACKET..

 

[Paramajic4]

Thanks, I'll give it another try.

 

[Paramajic4]

Loosened the lines and adjusted as far as I could. Seemed to hit a hard stop and didn't want to push further. I only found the four lines coming off the pump. Not sure what you mean't by "the one on the bracket" it seems to marginally better. What am I missing to get further advance

 

[Paramajic4]

Another pic

 

[thepumpguysc]

Do u see the cold start solenoid, it’s pointing to the throttle bracket.. on the bottom of that bracket, there should be another bracket that goes to the engine block for support..
BTW.. “new pumps” don’t have any tamper lacquer on them..
Have u put a volt meter on the csd solenoid?? to make sure it’s activated when 1st starting.. and shuts off after reaching temperature..
You can remove one of the nuts holding the pump to the block to SEE if you’re at the limit..

 

[Paramajic4]

Thanks for the reply. I found the bracket on the pump. Apparently the corresponding piece that goes to the block is missing. When making an another attempt, I noticed the shaft to the throttle was hitting the bell housing. Digging deeper I found that the arm on the throttle was binding an not letting the pump go back to the throttle stop. I adjusted everything to remove the binding. Also got maybe another degree of advance. It is at the limit now, confirmed by looking at the slots. Started up immediately. The engine was warm however. I'm going to let it sit overnight and try it in the morning. Hopefully found the problem. I'll let you know. BTW, only thought the pump was new as that's what the seller said and it came in a CNHI box (live and learn). Thanks for the help.

 

[Paramajic4]

Thanks for the reply. I found the bracket on the pump. Apparently the corresponding piece that goes to the block is missing. When making an another attempt, I noticed the shaft to the throttle was hitting the bell housing. Digging deeper I found that the arm on the throttle was binding an not letting the pump go back to the throttle stop. I adjusted everything to remove the binding. Also got maybe another degree of advance. It is at the limit now, confirmed by looking at the slots. Started up immediately. The engine was warm however. I'm going to let it sit overnight and try it in the morning. Hopefully found the problem. I'll let you know. BTW, only thought the pump was new as that's what the seller said and it came in a CNHI box (live and learn). Thanks for the help.

 

[thepumpguysc]

I see more w/o the bottom support than I do with.. lol
But coming from the dealer suprises me.. kinda gives u an idea of the service u can expect..
And to tell someone that their pump is “new” when it’s clearly a reman is just a flat out lie..
Let’s give’m the benefit of the doubt and say the guy u got it from was a little confused.. lol
Thanks for the pic of the pump..
On THAT specific type pump, they have a strong tendency to
IMPLODE.!!! U HAVE TO CHANGE THE FUEL FILTER REGULARLY.!!!
AND keep an eye on the fuel supply/lift pump.!!
They implode because they suck air and beats itself to death.. either by a clogged filter or a bad supply pump..
There is a kit that u can hook up to your supply pump and run the gauge into the cab to monitor the pressure..
I think u can find it by googling Bosch ve supply pump gauge..??
I haven’t looked for 1 in a while.
Good luck

 

[Paramajic4]

Thanks for the tip. I may just change the supply as a precaution as i'm sure it's the original.
Thanks again for all the help!

 

[thepumpguysc]

That’s a good idea .,

 

[Paramajic4]

Well, I thought I had this solved but its not. Put in a new fuel pump as a precaution but the problem still persists. Question, I have read about a sceen or some type of filter on the pick up end of the fuel line in the tank. I can find anything about it in my manual. Does anyone have info on this? It sometimes seems that the engine is starving for fuel. Thought this was mainly a cold start issue but had it on the block heater for over 24hrs and still got the same hard start problem.

This everything I have done so far:
New injectors
Oil and filter change
Drained fuel and replaced with new
Adjusted valves
Replaced fuel pump
replaced injector pump
New air filter
Adjusted timing
Bleed the system
Verified the KSB has power

Restate the problem:

the engine is very difficult to start. Once started it barely idles and will not power up with the throttle. eventually, it belches out a clould of black smoke and idles up. throttle adjusts as normal. I have not had the opportunity to actually use the machine so I have no idea what happens the longer it runs. At times, it will revert to the low/rough idle and then die. Thought it was temperature related but no so sure now. Probably should just haul it over to Case but want to try everything I can before doing that $$$$$$!

 

[bad Tom]

In your first post, you said it will fire up and run fine sometimes. This should NOT be the problem that you have, but years ago, a customer had a tractor that would not run faster than a idle. I found that the muffler was plugged up and would barely run. Have you tried it without the muffler?