Case 450 advice

[Jednlulu]

Progress

Progress progress! FInally got some "me" time today. Got the brake "pods" back together Friday evening...man, that was a pain in the rear. Had to access the cotter pins from the back side since I couldn't get the Shaft out. Nimble fingers and some 45 degree angled needlenose pliers did the trick. Today, got the hubs put back on, the slaves put on, nearly all plumbed up and then AUGGH !!:Banghead !! The aftermarket master cylinders I got don't have the standard union flare..they have a NPT machining. THe company I got them from sent some adapters but they have an ISO flare instead so, I'm dead in my tracks. I did take time to disassemble the brake pedal linkage since the left pedal was tight....real tight. Figured out why my ton of penetrating oil didn't seem to help any!! The copper bushing thats pressed into the pedal (where pedal pivots) didn't have a hole drilled through so that the grease from the zert could get to the shaft!! What the !!?? :beatsme

So, I had my replacement hoses (between hydro pack and master cylinders) made up at a local hose shop. Suppose I'll stop in tomorrow and see what kind of adapter they may have to get me hooked up. Hate to have to buy those again! Even if I have to buy a 2nd set, it'll still be cheaper than buying an OEM set from Case!

And, I made sure to grease the crap out of everything that moves so, I should be good there (along with stainless cotters!!)
After busting my fingers up on my cheapy grease gun, I've finally decided to look for an auto greaser that slaps on a 5 gallon bucket and hooks up to compressor. Gotta be better than fighting with this stupid thing!

Thanks again for all the advice guys.
When I get my brakes finished I'll continue with the other troubleshooting / analysis tips you've left and I'll be sure to report back.
:drinkup

 

[Jednlulu]

Back in business!

Back in business! Got the npt to std flare fittings afterwork, put the master cylinders back in, plumbed the lines from the hydro pack to the m/c's, put in the Brake Fluid, bled the system and wala! Brakes are a workin' again! I was worried about the hydro pack not disengaging and haven't actually tested it yet but, I can hear them firing the cut out in the hydro pack (and "feel") before the slaves start to fire. I'm super pumped. So, I'll paint up the shielding before I put it back on just to dress'er up a little before taking the ultimate of test drives.
Again, thanks to all for your help thus far. :notworthy

 

[Jednlulu]

I just remembered something the guy told me when I bought it. She's a little sluggish due to the "throttle body timing". I'm not real familiar with how it works but according to the gentleman, "timing" is adjusted by rotating the throttle body cw or ccw accordingly. Makes sense to me but, would someone mind educating me on what exactly this means and how to judge appropriate adjustment / position? Thanks again for any additional insight you guys have. Jed

 

[Jednlulu]

Brakes are DONE and functional!

Major milestone tonight! Got everything back together, cleaned linkage slop up, mounted the shift controls, started her up and walaa! Brakes work! I shuttled back and forth in the barn (it's late and the '78 Ford pick up is in the way) and she seems to work! Slight depression on the pedals (together and individually) disengage the drives and brake!
Special thanks to Tony in WV and Dale at Tractorstuff plug --> http://www.e-backhoeparts.com/noncaseparts.htm

for helping me out with the brakes and all the filter replacements.
Now for the diagnosis of the torque converter, etc.
I'll let you all know how that goes...I'm sure I'll need more advice so, thanks in advance! :usa

 

[Jednlulu]

How much should a 450 be able to "push"?

Alright, so brakes are done, all filters changed and I even figured out how to "time" the high pressure fuel pump. Upon timing finish, I tested her out in the barn and boy, sure seemed to have so much more power (on level ground). So, today, I took her out for a test spin / dig.
Just started: In order to steer, I have to keep one side in low and then toggle from high to neutral with the other side. Otherwise she just sits there, engine bogs down pretty good.
After warming up, steering is achieved a little better some toggling (as described above) sometimes can just keep one side in low and the other in high...depends upon the grade I suppose. But, then again, the engine seems to be able to rev a little higher.
Plenty warm: I pushed a huge tree stump (completely sawn off at the base) - about 8' long / 36" in diameter. Seemed to push it ok, but steering still took some toggling.
Attempt to "dig"....so, these parts has a lot of clay. I understand that pushing high clay content soil is a lot more strenuous on a dozer than nice clean sand would be but, I can only get a hold of about 2" or so of soil before she bogs...seems that the engine sometimes will rev higher than others too. So if I back up a bit and rev her in neutral a bit then get going I can push a little bit more...I'm getting worried that this machine won't be able to dig our pond come July....
Anyway, she just doesn't seem to have enough power to push much. The blade is about 24" high but seems silly to have a blade that tall if I can only effectively peel up about 2" of soil.
I attempted to run through the previously advised diagnoses but my transmission pressure guage isn't working. I will say though that higher RPM's provides higher Torque Converter pressure. Guage scale ranges from 0 to 100 and it tops out at about 90 under load, with engine revved up good. Also, temp running at about 210 degrees.
Any thoughts? Advice? :beatsme

 

[FurakawaMatt]

When digging into hard soil I find that using the 6-way blade comes in handy by first tilting it to brake the surface. If this is done with the blade angled all the way it acts like a plow to loosen up the earth. After the soil is loosened you can than use the full length of blade to move much more. On a pond it gets easier once you have a bit of down slope to make use of the weight of the machine to increase the pushing force. I dug quite a few ponds in tight packed clay with my 10K lb Furrukawa 40hp using that method. Actually I found some of the worse soil to deal with was heavily grassed areas of fields since the grass resists breaking.

 

[Jednlulu]

FurakawaMatt, thanks for the advice. Yes, I tried this approach and it did seem to help some. The grass in the area I was playing is relatively thick and tall (unmowed this season and last). But, even then, I just can't seem to "bite" much material without the machine bogging....I'm wondering what is the norm as far as what this machine should be able to push.
Like I said, it seems that I can "peel" about an inch to 2" at a time, that's about it....does that sound normal for a Case 450 machine? Or is it possible I still have some machine trouble that isn't enabling me to take a decent sized "bite"?
Thanks again for the tip and advice.

 

[SouthOnBeach]

depending on how hard of dirt you are in 2" might be all you can peel at a time, but if you can do 2" for 50ft i'm sure you have a decent blade full of dirt.
now back to the power problem. if you are on flat firm ground (not in mud) you should have no problem having one track in low and putting the brake on to spin the machine around in a tight circle. the next thing is get on some soft dirt that you have dug up already and see if you can spin the tracks, it should have plenty of power to do that. now with any old dozer, you're not going to be able to turn well while pushing a load of dirt, every time you put on the brake or neutral you cut your pushing power to one track instead of two. i'm going to assume that you have the hi-lo selector in lo range. that's the long lever next to the seat. also as far as peeling dirt, hows your blades cutting edge?

 

[Jednlulu]

I haven't really looked closely at the cutting edge but, to steer, she won't do a tight circle as you describe. To turn right for example, I have to have left track in high, right in low and then "toggle" the left from high to neutral. Same achieved if I keep left in high and toggle right side from low to neutral. She will then "jump" to the desired direction in small increments. Seems to do a little better when machine is warmed up. I think on just soil (no grass) there were a few times that I could turn with minimal "toggling". Yes, main lever is in lo range, I've not even tried it in high range, understanding that it wouldn't have the torque to move.
It seems more like the engine boggs moreso than high rev and no power at drive. Could I still be off a bit with the fuel pump timing? I performed just as manual described, opened up the flywheel timing window, lined up at 8 degrees (after confirming the pushrods at #1 cylinder were free and #4 cylinder free / slight load with slight rotation of the flywheel). I had to look at the timing marks on the right side of the machine as they weren't visible on the left side (fuel pump side) with the #1 cylinder at TDC.
Also, I can't push 50' worth of soil...only about 5' before she boggs out...
Thanks for your help!

 

[Jednlulu]

So, I've replaced brakes (when I really don't even need them), "timed" the fuel pump, cleaned the prefilter at the pump, changed every filter on the girl and still, just doesn't seem to have the power she should. Now, after she warms up to 220 or so she gets better, at least then she can turn on the grass but, when under load, the engine just bogs. If I revv her up a big and then engage in low, she'll push for a quick bit, then bogg out shortly thereafter. As engine boggs, the torque converter pressure drops, I'm assuming due to engine power dropping. Still don't have pressure guage working for transmission so, can't tell what's going on there but I'm assuming if tc drops, so is tranny since tc is driven by pump. Any takers?
I just remembered, she still has the same fuel in her from when I bought her...perhaps drain and try fresh fuel? Anyway, any help is appreciated. Thanks, Jason:beatsme

 

[oldseabee]

Is your engine smoking when bogging down. Black smoke indicates lack of air, white smoke indicates some over fueling like leaking injectors, blue smoke indicates burning oil and or low compression, minimal smoke could mean low fuel pump pressure or worn injectors or clogged injector nozzles, just can't make horse power. Any slobber at exhaust? Could need valve job. A lot of things can effect the engine. If it was the transmission, you more then likely have higher then normal RPM with low power.

 

[Jednlulu]

No smoke whatsoever, only a little puff at start up when she's been sitting awhile. If injectors were clogged or fuel pump had low pressure, would she be able to revv high when in neutral? She only boggs when "in gear". thanks so much for your response and I look forward to clarity.

 

[FurakawaMatt]

Sorta sounds like you are not getting a increase in fuel when under demand. Might be a weak fuel pump or something to do with the governor.
It may even be a plugged fuel line though I would think that would show up even when unloaded. Though changing your fuel out would be a good idea if it is old.

 

[oldseabee]

To reach high idle no load doesn't require a lot of fuel. When you load the engine, the governor calls for more fuel. If the injectors are clogged or the pump is weak, they can't supply what the governor is asking for so the RPM drops to the level that the fuel supply will support. Have you checked stall speed? That is the max RPM the engine will make and hold at full throttle with the transmission in high gear oil hot and the brakes locked and or the blade is buried so the machine can't move or spin the tracks. The Dealer should be able to give you stall speed. Some machines also require that the hydraulics be over relief to get stall speed.
The dealer or spec sheet should give you that info also

 

[Jednlulu]

I suppose I should check / replace the injectors (step 1), check governor (step 2), have injector rebuild (step 3)...how's that for order of approach?
Forgive me...this "governor" that you speak of, where is it located and how to check / confirm adequacy? Thanks again.

 

[FurakawaMatt]

The governor is located where your throttle cable is attached. It is part of the injector pump housing. As to how to check it out, that would require a mechanics knowledge. Bit outside my area. :beatsme

Most likely oldseabee has it right.

 

[Jednlulu]

Anyone familiar with a reputable source to rebuild my injector pump? What kind of investment would I be making (roughly)?

 

[thebaz]

I would get someone knowledgeable to have a look at how the 450 is performing and make a diagnosis. The injector pump on that motor is pretty simple and unlikely to give trouble. It may very well be the cause, but could be an expensive exercise getting it rebuilt if it is not the cause. Have you checked that the throttle linkage is getting full travel? Does the engine appear to die or does it just seem like the load is too much for the motor? Does it blow black smoke like it is under heavy load when it bogs? I would think that if the governor was not responding the motor wouldn't bog, rather the machine would just stop pushing and the motor would not be under load due to the light throttle.
There are so many variables it would be well worth getting an expert assessment.

Just as a side note, I am a bit puzzled by your steering technique. To steer right you should have your left track in low and put your right track in neutral for a slow turn.
For a fast turn or pivot turns, both tracks in low and hit the right brake. For a power turn right, left track in high right track in low. When power turning you will need a lot more power and on some ground the machine will be reluctant to move at all, but you shouldn't have to be jerking the lever from high to neutral to get it to turn, in fact you should always power down when shifting the transmission levers, whether from forward to reverse or low to high as there is no modulation on the transmission and it will be really hard on everything since the clutches engage instantly when shifted.
If you didn't understand the steering technique let me know and I will try and be a bit clearer.

Hope that helps.
Baz

 

[Jednlulu]

Now that you mention the throttle linkage, it is "bent" right at where it connects to the lever on the fuel pump...I'll try to bend that back and give it a shot.
Seems load is too great for the motor, rpm's drop (I say that not because there's a guage but simply because it revvs down). There is no abnormal smoking either. The way you describe the governor not responding is precisely what she's doing.
So, when cold, in order to steer, the toggling exercise is what is necessary in order to move. When she warms up, she turns a little easier by using the method(s) you described but even then, the motor is loaded and she loses umph.
I'll try to straighten the linkage out and see how it goes. I never thought that would effect it because with no steering or moving, when depressing the gas pedal, she revvs up nice and high....thanks for the tip, I'll let you know what happens. Thanks Baz.

 

[thebaz]

What happens if you have both track levers in low and clutch and brake one side? Does it turn ok then or still bog down. When you are pushing and put one track in neutral or push the brake pedal down half way, does the engaged track spin or does it bog more? When you engage both tracks in high does it travel ok or won't move?
The way you describe the steering sounds like there is something wrong with the trans, so if you could respond to the above questions it would give a clearer picture. If I tried to steer my 455c like you have described it would respond differently to yours.
Baz