Brake chatter on Dana/Spicer axles

[RobertZ]

Hey all! Just wanted to see what you guys have had success with in elimination brake chatter on your wheel loaders wet disc brakes. Dana recommends 80-90 LS for the axle. Loader is being used inside a warehouse moving bulk materials. After about an hour of use, the brakes start growling pretty bad. We have already inspected the disks and they are well within their tolerances for wear. Oil has been changed in the last 200 hours. Is there an additive that you have has success with?

 

[alrman]

Yes there are additives available for that type of problem. I have always got them from the supplier of the machine. Chances are they know of the problem & can advise what to use. Post what make & model you have & you may get more informative reply from someone in the know.

 

[RocksnRoses]

I would suggest the oil you are using is not compatible with your particular machine. It works fine until it gets hot then the brakes chatter. I have had a wheel loader with a limited slip diff sound like it was destroying itself every time it was turned, until the oil was changed, then ran quiet as. I have had the same problem with inboard brakes. As Alrman said, tell us what the machine is.

RnR.

 

[RobertZ]

The machine is a Hyundai 740-9. No noise at all when turning from left to right unless you are applying the brakes. The oil is what is recommended from the manufacturer, but I think that the short travel and constant braking is heating the oil up. I have heard people talk about using hydraulic oil or UTTO but do not have any personal experience in using it.

 

[RocksnRoses]

As you say, the recommendation for your machine is LS 90. This is Valvoline's suggestion, we use their products in our machines and have no problems at all, in a couple of instances it has cured a chattering problem..

http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/valv_auMS/default.asp

Follow the menu through until you come to your machine.

Apart from that, go back to the manufacturer as alrman said, they may have the answer.

RnR.

 

[RobertZ]

RnR - Thanks for linking that website! That's an awesome reference point for the bosses machines.

Hyundai has suggested adding a quart of "Equa-Torque" and then running it for 100 hours to let it condition the oil and brakes. I suppose I will see what happens in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Nige]

There are additives out there for reducing/removing brake chatter, Caterpiilar 1U-9891 is one of the best in my experience. But I would say that the main cause of the chatter is most likely the EP additives in the 80W-90 oil you are using, despite it being the type & viscosity of oil that Dana Spicer recommends. They probably don't recommend TO-4 oil because, like many proprietary axle manufacturers, they are stuck in the 20th Century and have no idea TO-4 powertrain oils even exist. They most likely haven't even tested them ...........

If the loader is no longer in warranty then I strongly suggest trying an SAE50 oil meeting TO-4 specification the next time you change the axle oil. And before anyone says it SAE50 is not "lighter" than a an SAE 80/90 gear oil, the viscosities are just about identical. Throw the relevant amount of oil additive - a 1-quart bottle is usually enough to treat both axles on a medium-size loader.

Here is a document I have regarding brake chatter on wet disc-braked axles. Gear lube (EP-type gear oil) is one example. Most gear lube contains extreme pressure additives. Extreme pressure additives that are combined with elevated brake temperatures can glaze the surface of the friction material. As a result, the dynamic coefficient [of friction] is reduced and the probability of chatter is increased.

 

[Nige]

A few more comments, if I may. The link provided by RnR above is a good source of information, however like all databases it needs to be treated with care .....

For the OP's Hyundai I see that the site recommends an engine oil in the transmission. I've never seen a modern-day powershift tranny yet that uses engine oil, it's more usual for a TO-4 or an ATF although other options do exist for transmissions including some types of hydraulic oils.

For example I found that for a particular model of Hitachi that we use the Valvoline website recommended a hydraulic oil that is, and I quote, "fortified with anti-wear zinc additives". Hitachi recommends zinc-free hydraulic oil (check out the spec of their own HN46 oil) and will deny warranty on any hjydraulic component failure if a customer uses oil with zinc anti-wear additives.

Back to the brakes on this Dana Spicer axle in the Hyundai. Obviously they use the axle oil for cooling rather than having a dedicated cooling circuit. As the OP says when the oil heats up after about an hour the noise starts. Could it be operation-related..? I say this because I have seen operators who have a tendency to ride the left (neutralizer) pedal all the time when they are running. With wet disc brakes in an axle the only cooling they are getting is when you completely let off the brake pedal and let the oil get right into the brake pack. Even if there is just a few psi in the brake line from riding the pedal it will be enough to literally squeeze all the oil out from between the plates, and then you have no cooling whatsoever. I saw this one time on a 992G where no-one could get to the bottom of a brake temp/wear/chatter issue when it was discovered that one of the operators (there were 4 IIRC) on the machine was literally huge and even with the seat slid right back found it impossible to get his foot completely off the left pedal. Therefore all the time he was running he was riding the brakes and causing overheating & chatter as soon as the oil heated up. Do you have an infra-red temp gun you can get hold of an shoot the temps of the axles..? I'd suggest take temps at say 10 minute intervals starting from "cold" around the brake packs, on the outside of the final drive planetary carriers, & the differential housing. The last 2 should be far enough away from the brakes to show if the brakes themselves are heating up significantly more than the general oil in the axle.

Reading all this again, it sounds like a rant, but it's not intended to be. My apologies.

 

[RocksnRoses]

A few more comments, if I may. The link provided by RnR above is a good source of information, however like all databases it needs to be treated with care .....

For the OP's Hyundai I see that the site recommends an engine oil in the transmission. I've never seen a modern-day powershift tranny yet that uses engine oil, it's more usual for a TO-4 or an ATF although other options do exist for transmissions including some types of hydraulic oils.

For example I found that for a particular model of Hitachi that we use the Valvoline website recommended a hydraulic oil that is, and I quote, "fortified with anti-wear zinc additives". Hitachi recommends zinc-free hydraulic oil (check out the spec of their own HN46 oil) and will deny warranty on any hjydraulic component failure if a customer uses oil with zinc anti-wear additives.

Back to the brakes on this Dana Spicer axle in the Hyundai. Obviously they use the axle oil for cooling rather than having a dedicated cooling circuit. As the OP says when the oil heats up after about an hour the noise starts. Could it be operation-related..? I say this because I have seen operators who have a tendency to ride the left (neutralizer) pedal all the time when they are running. With wet disc brakes in an axle the only cooling they are getting is when you completely let off the brake pedal and let the oil get right into the brake pack. Even if there is just a few psi in the brake line from riding the pedal it will be enough to literally squeeze all the oil out from between the plates, and then you have no cooling whatsoever. I saw this one time on a 992G where no-one could get to the bottom of a brake temp/wear/chatter issue when it was discovered that one of the operators (there were 4 IIRC) on the machine was literally huge and even with the seat slid right back found it impossible to get his foot completely off the left pedal. Therefore all the time he was running he was riding the brakes and causing overheating & chatter as soon as the oil heated up. Do you have an infra-red temp gun you can get hold of an shoot the temps of the axles..? I'd suggest take temps at say 10 minute intervals starting from "cold" around the brake packs, on the outside of the final drive planetary carriers, & the differential housing. The last 2 should be far enough away from the brakes to show if the brakes themselves are heating up significantly more than the general oil in the axle.

Reading all this again, it sounds like a rant, but it's not intended to be. My apologies.

Nige, if contractors running a variety of machines can't rely on the databases put out by the oil companies, where do they find they find the relevant information, a lot of machines are older and the manufacturers are generally not that helpful. In our case, we run a variety of machines and trucks and carry something like 14 different grades of oil. I also suggest that the companies would have to be fairly close to the mark with their recommendations or they would leave themselves open to litigation, if equipment failures were caused by using the wrong oil.

You mentioned the recommendation of engine oil being used in the transmission of Robert's loader, if you Google 'Datateck.com.au' it brings up the lube charts for quite a few of the major oil companies here in Australia and they all specify their own engine oil for his transmission. I only used the Valvoline reference because that is what we use. My point is, even though T0-4 or ATF may seem to be more appropriate, the recommended engine oil is probably not going to do any harm.

As for loader brakes heating up, riding the brake pedal is certainly going to accelerate it, it is something I am conscious of all the time and still find myself doing it, but if the loader is operating at full noise loading trucks or feeding a crushing plant, which ours do, the brakes are going to get hot regardless. I had a couple of Ford loaders many years ago and in summer the front axles got that hot, you could spit on them and it would almost sizzle.

RnR.

 

[Nige]

RnR, I wasn't trying to say that the oil company's database is always wrong, just that it tries to be a "catch all" type of deal that most of the time is correct. Only occasionally it misses the mark. However if the occasional miss is the compartment in your machine then it could put you in deep sh1t. If you check there is usually a disclaimer in this type of resource basically saying "The information contained here is correct to the best of our knowledge & belief. But if we get it wrong, don't bother suing us".

We also use a wide variety of machinery (over 300 pieces if you include things like utes & mid-size trucks) and I have got our oil types down to 10, a list that includes brake fluid & ATF. it's possible if you know what you're doing. many oils we are not using the manufacturer's recommended but something that we have proved from oil analysis works even better than the recommended. That's one reason I suggested the OP try SAE50 TO-4 in his wet brakes before trying one of the many additives on the market - past experience with Hypoid Gear oil in the same application on wheel loaders.

I understand completely about the position of a contractor who has a wide variety of equipment, some of which might not be current models, and the equipment dealer/supplier not being too helpful. However in those circumstances my progression to find a correct oil would most likely be: -

1. Machine supplier/dealer.
2. Somewhere like HEF
3. Oil company database - I've been bitten too often before.

 

[Bala]

interesting post for me as our telehandler has chatter because the operator cant stop leaving his foot on the throttle just a bit and fighting it with the brake.

But on the subject of recommended oils. As we had a couple of new/second hand machines I sent our suppliers tech expert the details of all our machines manufacturers oil specs, so they could cross them to the brand we use. The brief was i want as few oils onsite as I possibly can get away with. He came back with three different Hyd oils for 5 different brands of machines, I got on their website and looked for a while and come up with one for all, then went back and said how about we use this one for all, yep he goes that would be fine. The oil he specified for wet brake was also no good. You really need to research yourself now days to have a bit of an idea about the advice your are given.

 

[Brake]

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[JGS Parts]

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