Bobcat T190 running problem

[willie59]

Got home tonight and had a PM from a member who is having problems with his T190 not running. After viewing the PM, I thought there was enough there to post his question on a thread and discuss it, might be useful info for other members.

I have an 2004 T190 ser#527713325. I replaced the orginal Solenoid in 06, again in 08 and now about to replace it again in 10.
The first time in 06 it gave a code that indicated fuel solenoid and my local rep came out and replaced it. It did the same thing again in 08 and I replaced it and it ran fine. It has now done the same thing again, this time with no codes showing.
The machine will run great, just turned 1000 hours, plenty of power, sounds fine then all of a sudden it shuts down. No spit and sputter just like someone turned off the key. In the past I have let it sit for a while, 15 to 30 min, and it will restart and run fine for an hour maybe two and then shut off again.
Yesterday it just shut off and will not restart after a "cool-down" periord. ( It never has run hot )
I have read some of your previous posts in reference to "the plunger" that you can hold down to bypass the fuel solenoid shutting off. I am not familiar with that plunger.
Any ideas?
I have not explored the "rubbed wire" short simply because I am no mechanic and I will really have a problem if I go plundering around in the engine.


Ok, at first glance, one would thing the fuel solenoid has gone down. But I'm not so sure that's the case with this one. Generally speaking, when Syncro Start solenoids crap out, they crap out. They don't come back to life after a rest period. This sounds more like a fuel restiction problem to me, runs for a while, dies flat out, let it sit for a spell, would start and run again. Now won't start/run at all. You have changed the fuel filter lately, no?

Something to check; at the moment it dies, open the rear door and check the rubber primer bulb in the fuel line going to the lift pump. If that primer bulb is sucked flat as a road kill 'possum, your got a restiction, probably in tank pick up tube. Could also have a broken pick up tube in tank, common problem with Bobcats. Could be the lift pump. We'll try and noodle through this.

First things first, last thing you said was it wouldn't start/run at all. Is it still like that? You asked about the "plunger" I was referring to. The plunger I'm talking about is part of the shutdown solenoid, the electric solenoid with the three wires going to it. When you go to start the machine, the solenoid coil pulls in a plunger rod that is connected to a linkage rod that goes to the fuel shut off lever on the injection system. One thing you want to pay close attention to, when installing new solenoid, is to make certain the plunger bottoms out inside the solenoid coil when it powers up and pulls fuel linkage. We'll discuss that later when we get your machine going.

For now, disconnect the linkage that's connected to the fuel lever on injection pump. Put a piece of tie wire in the fuel lever on injection pump, pull that lever in direction of shutdown solenoid, pull tight, and tie off. Now try and crank engine and see if it starts. If it does, run it for a while and see if it shuts down. If it does, you have a fuel supply problem. Keep us posted.

 

[rhurst]

Thanks for the advice. It will be Friday before I am able to work on the machine. Will let you know the status.

Thanks again.

 

[Part sman]

You may not have external linkage on your machine. The newer kubota engines have the fuel solenoid on the front of the engine- internal plunger. Diagnosing would be the same. 3 wires on plug- pull, hold and ground. When it shuts down suddenly, check power at hold terminal. Also make sure you have a good ground.

 

[rhurst]

Got my new solenoid. Drove back to where the machine stranded me and was prepared to install the new solenoid. I decided to give the machine one more try. Started with no problem. Ran the machine for 4 hours with no issue.
I am lost. I am no mechanic and I know the machine is going to leave me stranded again.
At least I have a spare $300 solenoid.
Any ideas would be appreciated.

 

[willie59]

Got my new solenoid. Drove back to where the machine stranded me and was prepared to install the new solenoid. I decided to give the machine one more try. Started with no problem. Ran the machine for 4 hours with no issue.
I am lost. I am no mechanic and I know the machine is going to leave me stranded again.
At least I have a spare $300 solenoid.
Any ideas would be appreciated.

rhurst, your just going to have to relax and be patient, and be ready. Right now, you can't really fix it because you don't know what to fix. Yes, if it quit running before, chances are it will do it again. But that's not a bad thing, we need it to quit. It's kind of a "you can't fix something that ain't broke" thing. Since you have an '04 T190, you more than likely have an external shut down solenoid with external linkage as I described in post above. Notice how that shutdown works. Actually, shut down solenoid is technically incorrect. It would be more proper to call it a engine run solenoid because when you power up the solenoid, it pulls the fuel lever of the injection pump into the run position. Take away power from the solenoid, it simply release the spring loaded fuel lever to stop fuel from flowing through injection pump which kills engine. At this point, we don't have enough info to determine whether you have an electrical problem (solenoid, relay, wiring harness), or whether you have a fuel problem. And until it quits again, it's going to be hard to determine which it is. Keep running it, and be ready. At the moment it quits, don't turn off ignition. Jump out of the machine and sling that door open and immediately look at position of the fuel lever controlled by solenoid. Is it in the run position? Or has the solenoid released it and it's now in the stop position? If it's still in the run position, chances are you have a fuel problem. If the solenoid has released and the lever is in the stop position, while igintion still on with engine dead, check your codes. If the solenoid is releasing because of a electrical control problem, it should give a code. And you'll want to take a look at the fuel relay in the fuse panel between your legs while in the seat. Switch the fuel relay with another relay, like the lights relay. And look closely at the socket that the fuel relay plugs into. Look for signs of melted plastic or terminals that have been hot. Keep working at it and we'll give you all the advice we can think of to help you out.

 

[Z2898]

Just my thoughts for what they are worth. From my experience when a solenoid (or an electromagnet) quits it usually will quit for good. 14 million miles of wire that make up the coil usually will not repair itself if it goes open although I have heard of that happening when the coil cools (contracts) and the wire again makes contact.

What I would do in this situation (again for what it is worth) is start the machine, and then wiggle every connection and wiring harness I could find, and wiggle it hard! What you are looking for is the machine to quit. If it does try it again. You may be able to duplicate it until you can zero in on the bad connection.

This issue really does sound like a bad connection to me.

Hope some of this helps,


Z

 

[willie59]

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

Everyones thoughts are worth something Z2898. Unless one is recommending changing the air in the tracks or something like that. :tong

Since we don't have enough info to pinpoint what his problem is at this point, ideas of what to look for are still good points. And it's been my experience as well that when solenoids go bad, they're done. But likewise, nothing is impossible.

 

[rhurst]

I got the call today. One of my guys ran the machine for 2 hours and 25 minutes when it stopped. Would not restart and no codes showing. He checked the fuel bulb and gave it a squeeze, it was full.
I just read the last two posts and will check the machine out tomorrow with those comments in mind.
Thank you for your posts. I do appreciate all the comments.

 

[willie59]

I got the call today. One of my guys ran the machine for 2 hours and 25 minutes when it stopped. Would not restart and no codes showing. He checked the fuel bulb and gave it a squeeze, it was full.
I just read the last two posts and will check the machine out tomorrow with those comments in mind.
Thank you for your posts. I do appreciate all the comments.

Not definitive for sure, but no codes would tend to indicate the problem isn't a failing shut down solenoid. When solenoids go bad, they generally draw excessive amperage. The BICS controller will pick this up everytime and take power away from a failing solenoid to prevent harness damage, and it will give a code. No code, no solenoid problem. But again, that's the way it typically works. The ideal situation will be to be there when it quits. Is the fuel solenoid still pulled in? Is it released? If it's released, grab a piece of tie wire, pull that shut down lever to run position, and tie it off. See if machine will run now. If it does, you probably have a bad spot in the harness, problem with relay or relay socket, or problem with harness from cab controlling fuel relay.

 

[alco]

Everyones thoughts are worth something Z2898. Unless one is recommending changing the air in the tracks or something like that. :tong

Damn Atco, that was gonna be my suggestion........lol.

 

[willie59]

Damn Atco, that was gonna be my suggestion........lol.

Oh, sorry, didn't mean to let the air out of ur tracks. :tong

 

[Mavrickxxx]

You got take exsaht sample when it's running. 55 gallon garbagebag and roll of duct tape. I used to have the green horns do them same time they took oil samples. The 345 on high idle was the favorite to watch

 

[jca57jd]

Hey guys,
I am having a similar problem with my 06 t190. Its kinda weird though and im going to explain everything. Its been siting for about 1 month not used. I have never changed the battery in it but it has always cranked up fine. I went to crank it on friday and it was dead? I jumped it off and worked it hard for about 2 hours cutting a road into a bank and all the sudden it cut off. It started right back up and ran fine for about another 30 min and cut off again. This time it didnt have the power to turn over so I had to jump it again. It cranked up fine but ammedatly cut off after about 5 seconds. jumped it again and the same thing and the computer was reading that the fuel silanoid was on when it should be off. Well I let it sit for about 5 min and it cranked right back up and ran fine for about another 45 min. Then it started acting like the fuel filter was dirty cause it was lacking power and missing a little? What do yall guys think? if yall think its the silanoid then ill buy one. Wear exactly is the silanoid located at? Thanks to all replies!

 

[willie59]

I'm seeing two issues that your decribing jca57jd.

First, what's up with the battery? Goes like this; sat for a month, dead as a hammer, boost off, ran 2 hrs, shut down, but starts (cranks) back up, 30 minutes, shut down again, now wouldn't crank. Huh? How did it crank first time but not this time? There's something going on there, and whatever it is it could be affecting your fuel solenoid. Check to make sure it's charging, make certain (I mean take them off and clean) that the battery connections are good. And it would be great to load test the battery, although many folks don't have a big ass battery load tester.

Second; started acting like the fuel filter was dirty cause it was lacking power and missing a little? Fuel solenoid would not cause this, it's either on or off, nothing in between or misfiring. Change the fuel filter and see if that fixes that problem. If not, possible fuel lift pump, hole in fuel hose, or clogged/failed fuel pick up tube in fuel tank.

 

[jca57jd]

Sorry Atco!
I had no clue that you posted a reply. My email didnt notify me. Since the last post I have changed the battery and battery conections, and the fuel filter. It has been running fine since then until today. I was scraping some snow off of some driveways today and it was doing fine and then all the sudden cut off (blocking 2 driveways). It was reading the code about the selanoid reaceving power when it shouldnt. I cranked it up and it amidatly cut off (did it about four times). I let it sit 30 min and then it cranked write up and ran fine (I only ran it for about 2 min; pulled it back to the trailer). Im not sure weather its the selanoid or if ther is a short somewhere? How can I figure out which one it is? Any other thing that it could be?

Now about the power lose. I have had this problem for the past 2.5 years. Every time I start haveing power loses I automaticaly change the fuel filter and it solves the problem? The weired part is that I have changed the filter about 12 times and I only have 456 hours on this machine?
Thanks for your responses!

 

[willie59]

That's an awful lot of filter changes. Have you checked what's in the filter when you change it? Next time you have to change it, take the filter off, pour out just a tad bit of fuel to make some air space inside filter, place your hand over open end of filter, and shake vigorously. Pour the remaining fuel into a clean pan, not a black pan, can't see debris as well. This will give you an idea of what's clogging filter.

Just what code is it giving you? If the ECU is sensing that the fuel solenoid is getting power when it shouldn't, could be stuck fuel relay in fuse panel box.

Depending on which T190 you have, they came with two types of fuel solenoids. Older models had the external solenoid with linkage, newer models have the soleniod mounted on the crank pulley end of engine near injection pump and has internal linkage. Which one do you have?

 

[jca57jd]

Hey Atco,
Thank you alot for your help. Me and my dad stoped and read this forum from the begining again. We are not sure which fuel solenoid is on our 06 machine. We are going to verify what type of solinoid (internal or external) tomarrow morning. We are also going to stop and take our time next time the machine cuts off, and go through and check the status of everything you mentioned on earlyer posts (bulb, solinoid, relay etc...).

However, one question we have is - if this model kubota has an internal linkage fuel solinoid we are not going to be able to visually inspect the position of the fuel shut off plunger. Given this, would we check the status of the solinoid by checking the power on the hold termal to see if its energized? To back up a mintue, how can we identify the hold wire/terminal so we can determine the solinoid status once the machine shuts down?

 

[jca57jd]

Atco,
My dad got own me about exagerating. We have chaged the fuel filter 4-5 times over the last 200 hours. The changes accur when the machine starts lossing lots of power when under heavy loads (cutting roads). We are not positive, but we think that this is a separate isue from the machine just suddenly cutting off. Sorry once again, and thank you alot for your help!
John

 

[willie59]

The older models are easily identifiable, When you open the rear door, to your right side, at injection pump, there'll be a shiny round solenoid with a rubber boot on the end that has a linkage connected to shutoff lever on injection pump. Three wires. Red, positive hold wire. Black, ground. White, positive pull wire, should only be powered for no more than 5 seconds, then it should go dead.

If it's a newer model, you simply won't see shutoff linkage. I haven't had to troubleshoot one of those yet so I have no real experience to share with them.

 

[jca57jd]

Thanks alot, will let you know what we find out tomarrow!

On a side note - we are likeing the looks of the extreme duty mowers that bluediamond sells. Which model would you recomend for my lowflow t190 if my primary use would be cleaning out under growth around big trees (everything up to 5")? How well would my lowflow work? How much do they cost?

Thanks