Billing question?

[kyoshidog]

I recently completed a job for a builder at his own house and am having some trouble getting him to pay. He thinks the bill is too high and I wanted to see if I could get some feedback here, maybe he's right but I don't think so!

The job was initially to be to expose one wall of his full basement for access to waterproof it (by a different contractor) and to place a foundation drain along that side only. This is an old home (50+ is my guess) and the wall is about 60' long, had to dig about 7' down for access. I told him that time and materials would be $2000-$2500 for that part ($100 hr for hoe, $45 for laborers, $80 for truck). The area was tight and access was a real problem which made it slow going. After exposing the basement he had a fit because the wall was in poor shape, formed on 1 side only and very crumbly. The waterproofer wouldn't guarantee the work unless he had the wall parged and coated so the HO elected not to use them. TO make a long story short, the job evolved into us placing a rubber membrane along this wall, digging a curtain drain on the adjoining side and placing a drain in it, hard piping a new rain drain on 2 sides of the house, hauling off 1 load of dirt, bringing in 3 loads of rock, moving about 10 yards of dirt to a pile in his backyard with a loader, grading and graveling a parking area, and backfilling all the trenches, grading and then hand raking to finish. All the rock was unloaded directly from the truck to the trench by hoe (I should have conveyored it!) in order to minimize the mess and cleanup which added a few extra hours.

Bottom line, the total came out to around $9500 which included a fair ammount of hand digging and cleanup. Am I way out of line with this? I have kept meticoluos records documenting everything, all hours, materials etc. yet this client is sure he is being overcharged. I did not do any written change orders since he was out of town (bad mistake) when we finished the job. What do you guys think? I would love to hear your thoughts!
Thanks
Karl In Portland Or.

 

[Wolf]

Get it in writing. But an oral agreement can be enforceable too, so you are not out of luck. The charges seem reasonable. The challenge is getting him to pay. Try to get a mechanics lien filed or a judgment recorded against him.

 

[dayexco]

you should have given him an estimate for a change order, and made him sign off before you did any additional work over the scope of the original contract. i know when i take vehicles/equipment in for repairs....i tell them up front to NOT perform any additional work, install any additional parts UNTIL i personally see the problem, and sign off on it....AND, knowing what the additional charges will be.

 

[kyoshidog]

Dayexco,
You're absolutely right, that's what I should have done! Since this was such a small job at first, and the fact that he is an experienced GC I didn't give him anything other then an oral estimate. 3 days after the job began (and the scope of work increased substantially) he was gone and I didn't see him until the work was complete. His foreman (who was assigned to oversee the project in his abscence) told me not to worry but just to comlete the needed work which I did. I guess I should have just left it open until he returned. His biggest issues is the ammount of the bill which I think is reasonable but he does not. I think no matter what I did he would not have liked it but thaat's just a guess.

Thanks for the replies
Karl

 

[digger242j]

You're in the positon now that, a) he thinks you're overpriced, so you're not going to get any more work from him anyway, or b) he's testing you to see whether he can beat you down on price, and if you take any more of his work, it'll happen over and over, or c) you think he's a cheapskate, not willing to pay what your work is worth, and you won't take any more work from him anyway.

You may as well stick to your guns...

 

[zhkent]

You did good by keeping good records. Have you walked him through the where and what of all the expenses? Sometimes things seem high until it has been explained that there was a lot more involved to get the desired results than a person would think.

 

[kyoshidog]

IS my price too high?

Does this seem too high to you guys? I know it's hard to compare apples to apples here. It seems like everything is too expensive nowadays, but I always try to stay competitive.
Thanks
Karl

 

[Turbo21835]

As everybody has said, in writing is the way to go. As to your question about the price. It seems right. Its hard to say for sure, we dont know your quantities of material for grading the drive. From the work described it sounds about dead on with what I would charge. You say you had extra clean up from placing the stone. How much extra do you think that added to the bill? A slinger truck would mean less clean up. It would also cost you more to have the stone delivered that way. It usually equals out. Even with the cost of a slinger truck involved I dont think your final price for the job would go down, though the overall cost may be lower for you.

Josh

 

[tylermckee]

Price doesnt seem too high, people dont understand how quickly the bill can add up. how many machine/man hours are you billing for? what was the material cost? Maybe you need to give hime a detailed break down of what you are billing for. Everybody wants something done for nothing, and the fact that he is a GC isnt going to make things easier.

 

[dayexco]

Price doesnt seem too high, people dont understand how quickly the bill can add up.

that's exactly right, that's why we as responsible, respectable contractors must take the time to inform our customers of any work we deem necessary that is out of the scope of the original contract, make them aware of any additional costs.....and let THEM determine whether or not it's in their best interest and financial budget at the time to have the additional work performed.

in my 35 yrs in biz, it seems like the contractors that quote one price, and bill yet another.....aren't around very long.

 

[Squizzy246B]

in my 35 yrs in biz, it seems like the contractors that quote one price, and bill yet another.....aren't around very long.

:exactly I couldn't put it better. I have a steady stream of work (and pissed off customers) as a result of two local contractors. The don't quote properly and charge near double what they say...and they rarely have a repeat customer.

If there is one objective I have its that we must identify any variables before the job starts..in writing, state hourly rates for extras and indicative costs if necassary. Sooner or later something unquoted comes up on a job and its a PITA to stop. But you have to identify the costs and inform the client.

If I have tradesmen working at my place and they start trying to bill me extra without authorisation they get the flick....so thats how I view it when I'm working at somebody elses place..do unto others as you would have unto yourself.

So if I could just get my brother to stop charging me double for servicing my car:Banghead :Banghead

 

[jhill]

I would try to sit down with the customer and go over the bill with him. Get him to tell you what areas he thinks it are too high. It can be tough to work on GC's personal jobs. They always discounts or low prices based on the anticipation of more work. I have turned down jobs when they started asking for discounts. They were more trouble than they were worth.

Jerry

 

[dayexco]

as long as you sit down with them BEFORE the additional work starts. why have anything in question at the time of billing? at that point of your project, payment should just be a formality, not a battle. you should have it in black and white right in front of you.

 

[kyoshidog]

Writing, writing, writing!

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my original post, I appreciate your insights! Absolutely my fault for not implimenting written change orders on this job! The scope of the work changed almost daily depending on the mood of the H/O who is also a GC. I should have made a point of reinforcing the fact that more time = more$! I should have stopped work when he left town and had the change orders ready when he returned. Instead, I opted to finish the job and have to live with the results. I did keep (and always do) meticolous records and breakdowns of what was done, all materials, even a daily log showing what was done and who did it. I try to keep my operation very transparent and would rather make money long term then to try and to bilk some one with an unfair bill.

In the end, I dropped $2,000 off the bill which made it more agreeable to him and which he promptly paid. Will he ever call me back for more work? I don't know, but, if he does this situation will certainly never be repeated again! I guess I learned my lesson! Thanks again for all the comments.

Karl

 

[Squizzy246B]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my original post, I appreciate your insights! Absolutely my fault for not implimenting written change orders on this job! The scope of the work changed almost daily depending on the mood of the H/O who is also a GC. I should have made a point of reinforcing the fact that more time = more$! I should have stopped work when he left town and had the change orders ready when he returned. Instead, I opted to finish the job and have to live with the results. I did keep (and always do) meticolous records and breakdowns of what was done, all materials, even a daily log showing what was done and who did it. I try to keep my operation very transparent and would rather make money long term then to try and to bilk some one with an unfair bill.

In the end, I dropped $2,000 off the bill which made it more agreeable to him and which he promptly paid. Will he ever call me back for more work? I don't know, but, if he does this situation will certainly never be repeated again! I guess I learned my lesson! Thanks again for all the comments.

Karl

It can be very difficult in those situations and don't worry you are not the first to end up in this situation. I have made plenty of mistakes and sometimes I need to make them twice just to make sure I learned it proper .

From the sounds of it I think your client is very, very fortunate....so maybe he will come back and you can pick up a bit of lost ground. Last thing, set your rates and stick to it, the cost is the cost and nobody has the right to total transparency of your business...you have the right to make a profit...they do not have the right to pay cost.

Good Luck

 

[kyoshidog]

Off to the next one with contract in hand!

Thanks Squizzy, I am moving on, picked up 4 new jobs this week which will more then make up for my loss on this one. I just hatemaking mistakes which are so obvious! Thanks again, I have no doubt Ill be back with more dumb examples and questions in the future!

Take care
Karl

 

[jmac]

That is the correct attitude for sure. I have been burnt by customers and had every thing in writing, put liens out, attorneys etc. and stilled no money. It hurts but moving on is the only way. In writing is the only way to try and protect yourself but don't be fooled into thinking that will guarantee payment because it won't, some people are just out to screw you so move on to the next one. I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone on this board that owns an excavating company that has never been screwed, especially when they first started out. Lately what I have ran into is customers that find gray areas of your contract and try to get more out of you than you thought was the scope of work. So while you are arguing about the scope of work you are not getting paid. Sometimes I think it is just easier to do the extra just to get paid and move on. I don’t think it is possible to put in every possible situation or problem into your contract to protect yourself completely. The only way that is going to happen is a long term solution of working with repeat customers that you have a report(sp) with and working, give and take relationship with. This takes years to establish. First few years are the hardest!

 

[kyoshidog]

Thanks for the good words!

I have worked in construction for many years but am new to this line of work as an owner operator and I know I have lots to learn (always will)! I try to keep in mind the lessons I have learned over the years as a contractor as well as a consumer and strive to have a reputation for honesty and quality. Again, thanks!
Karl

 

[thejdman04]

I recently completed a job for a builder at his own house and am having some trouble getting him to pay. He thinks the bill is too high and I wanted to see if I could get some feedback here, maybe he's right but I don't think so!

The job was initially to be to expose one wall of his full basement for access to waterproof it (by a different contractor) and to place a foundation drain along that side only. This is an old home (50+ is my guess) and the wall is about 60' long, had to dig about 7' down for access. I told him that time and materials would be $2000-$2500 for that part ($100 hr for hoe, $45 for laborers, $80 for truck). The area was tight and access was a real problem which made it slow going. After exposing the basement he had a fit because the wall was in poor shape, formed on 1 side only and very crumbly. The waterproofer wouldn't guarantee the work unless he had the wall parged and coated so the HO elected not to use them. TO make a long story short, the job evolved into us placing a rubber membrane along this wall, digging a curtain drain on the adjoining side and placing a drain in it, hard piping a new rain drain on 2 sides of the house, hauling off 1 load of dirt, bringing in 3 loads of rock, moving about 10 yards of dirt to a pile in his backyard with a loader, grading and graveling a parking area, and backfilling all the trenches, grading and then hand raking to finish. All the rock was unloaded directly from the truck to the trench by hoe (I should have conveyored it!) in order to minimize the mess and cleanup which added a few extra hours.

Bottom line, the total came out to around $9500 which included a fair ammount of hand digging and cleanup. Am I way out of line with this? I have kept meticoluos records documenting everything, all hours, materials etc. yet this client is sure he is being overcharged. I did not do any written change orders since he was out of town (bad mistake) when we finished the job. What do you guys think? I would love to hear your thoughts!
Thanks
Karl In Portland Or.

Put a lein on the property until he pays