another problem , pto pump and engangement drive

[monkey]

L8000, okay so I bought this used as some remember. I've come to realized the pto pump was kinda jerry rigged where it attaches to the driven shaft on the truck. I'm guessing it's like an adapter that sandwiches between the pump itself and the housing on the bottom of the tranny..anyway the 4 internal bolts that hold the "adapter" plate to the tranny housing had been heli coiled, and not a very good job at that. They pulled out and the pump fell to the ground, hence the strap in the picture
My main problem now is the cab selector for engaging and disengaging the pto.......it didn't want to engage, tried adjusting the cable first.....I pulled this plate off and this is what I see. I notice the housing is cracked also.......should this housing not be full of oil?????? The selector fork looks and seems to operate correctly....all the gears look fine. Another quirk or I guess it is....the truck never seemed to shift correctly unless the pto pump was engaged..so I always left it engaged
Any thoughts about anything.....what I should do? I'm kinda lost

 

[Tiny]

Looks like you lost a power take off and a transmission . If you run either very long you have burnt bearings . Yes that housing should have oil in it .

 

[monkey]

hmmm, of course not what I wanted to hear....was in the back of my mind though

the transmission still works.....shifts. Had to move it about 1000' to where I could get under it and check things out, seemed to shift as it always has.

can I try and refill the tranny and see what happens? If so....where do you fill the transmission and what kinda fluid

 

[monkey]

It's not driven on the road, just around my property....just saying

If I knew a decent shop I would haul it to them and have it taken care of. Kinda trying to take care of it myself because I don't know of any place semi-local


really appreciate all thoughts and comments

 

[willie59]

If you pulled that cover off the PTO unit, and no oil came out, your tranny is dry of oil. If the PTO housing is cracked, you'll never be able to keep oil in the tranny. You could buy a new pump adapter, the part that pump mounts to, but it would do no good if PTO housing is cracked. You would have to obtain replacement parts to rebuild your PTO, purchase a new PTO unit, or perchance find a used replacement from a truck junk yard as they are common items. But you need the numbers off the ID tag to do any of these remedies as PTO units come in prolly a hundred variations.

 

[shopguy]

Willie, i did one of thees not long ago and i gutted the pto and brazed the crack ,got lucky that time. I drained red good heavy feeling oil do you know what kind is red , i would like to find out i use 80/90 GL5 but i liked this better but cant match it up

 

[monkey]

If you pulled that cover off the PTO unit, and no oil came out, your tranny is dry of oil. If the PTO housing is cracked, you'll never be able to keep oil in the tranny. You could buy a new pump adapter, the part that pump mounts to, but it would do no good if PTO housing is cracked. You would have to obtain replacement parts to rebuild your PTO, purchase a new PTO unit, or perchance find a used replacement from a truck junk yard as they are common items. But you need the numbers off the ID tag to do any of these remedies as PTO units come in prolly a hundred variations.

figured that, meant the tranny is dry my fault I guess

I guess I'll pull the pto crap off and see what i can do about that

what kinda oil goes back in the tranny...and where does it go? I look on the top of the transmission and I cant see where it goes.....It's an Eaton

Do I have a realistic chance of the transmission being okay, or am I pretty much SOL

I appreciate the help guys

you can see the crack, kinda V shaped, right above the bottom left bolt hole....where the cover bolts on

 

[willie59]

Tranny of that vintage prolly just uses 85W/90 gear oil. There should be a rather large size pipe plug on side of tranny, a little less than halfway up tranny housing, that's the oil fill level plug.

Take PTO off, fill with oil, and give it a try. Ya got nothing to lose.

 

[monkey]

I saw the plug or a plug at least

kinda what I was thinking :notworthy

 

[2stickbill]

Tranny of that vintage prolly just uses 85W/90 gear oil. There should be a rather large size pipe plug on side of tranny, a little less than halfway up tranny housing, that's the oil fill level plug.

Take PTO off, fill with oil, and give it a try. Ya got nothing to lose.

willie some of the 13 speed Eaton's used a mineral oil and I was told not to mix with any gear oil.He didn't say what Eaton tranny he has.As for filling it with oil and give it a go I would you will know pretty soon if it's cooked or not.Had a Mack tranny leak all of the oil out and locked up.Filled it with oil and run it.

 

[monkey]

eaton/fuller??

think it's a 4 speed with high low and then the deep reduction

like I said it's just running dirt on my farm, so I've never really got any higher than 3 rd low

I can look and see what kind it is next time I'm back up there

 

[monkey]

I bought it,took the guys word that everything was looked at and fluids changed/topped off....and I went right to work with it. Should took the time to check over everything thoroughly

 

[willie59]

willie some of the 13 speed Eaton's used a mineral oil and I was told not to mix with any gear oil.He didn't say what Eaton tranny he has.

Yep, was aware that some called for mineral oil, but I figured at this point, tranny having been run with no oil, not much point finding exact spec, any oil better than none.

 

[mitch504]

A few more points for you to consider.
The pump adapter on most PTOs is also the end of the housing that holds the race for the shaft bearings. With that loose, the PTO is not going to shift due to misalignment of the gears and shafts. What it sounds like is that if you are lucky, you need to replace the PTO housing. You may well be better off replacing the entire PTO, as it is hard to get new PTO parts, and it is a highly precise assembly process. If you don't maintain the proper backlash between the gears, and the proper bearing preload, you will end up with a short-lived unit. When you reinstall the PTO, you have to use the proper amount of shims between it and the tranny, or you can damage the PTO and the transmission.

You may be able to find a used housing to put your guts in, or you might find a complete unit. For a complete used unit, you need to make sure it is the same brand and series of transmission, (3rd digit from the right in the model # on an Eaton), and that it was used to power a dump pump.

For a housing, if that is a Chelsea PTO, there are 4 most popular housings, and about 20 others. For the 4 popular ones, the main variables are single or dual shafts, and mounting depth.

Since this is an old site truck what you really need to do is find an independent shop that never throws away PTO parts. I have boxes and boxes of old stuff that I can usually use to repair them. It is really hard to find a PTO distributor that will sell new parts, since they want to make up complete PTOs.

On another important subject, it is usually much easier for an inexperienced driver to shift with the PTO engaged, but I cannot stress enough, IT IS VERY BAD FOR YOUR PUMP the pump is cooled by the oil flowing through it, and when the bed is not going up, there is no oil flowing.

Good luck,
Mitch

 

[biggrader]

Right on Mitch, however some pumps are available with a kit so that if the pump is in neutral it will flow oil back to the tank. Of course you need another hose that routes back to the tank, but u are right, if there is only two hoses (suction and pressure) on the pump you can cook a pump pretty easy if left engaged.
Monkey, the key to being able to easily shift the pto in and out of gear is the shims between the pto unit and the transmission.

 

[mitch504]

Hey BG,
I looked back at the other thread he had, https://www.heavyequipmentforums.co...-on-L8000-dump&p=315429&viewfull=1#post315429, and the return port on his pump is plugged. If you look at the pic in this thread, this is a dual shaft PTO, so the tranny shims won't affect shifting, like it will on a single shaft one.
Enjoy your snow

Shopguy,
I use Mystik gear oil, it is red, and the best thing I've ever seen for staying stuck to gears and bearings after a catastrophic leak, it has saved many a component. It does have a better feel than most oils.

Monkey, on second look, this is not one of the common Chelsea housings, sorry. Shopguy's idea about brazing may be a good one, if it doesn't work, or if you can't get the pump adapter aligned right, you'll probably have to get a complete unit. Oh, and one more thing, when you put it all back together, put a strap from the back of the pump to the transmission, so you aren't supporting the weight of the pump entirely on the PTO, it'll go a long way towards keeping this problem from recurring.

 

[monkey]

thanks for all the help and suggestions...really appreciated

My plan is to just push some rtv in the crack....fill the tranny with oil and make sure the transmission is still working good. If it is then I'll pull the pump, adapter and pto housing off and take to a machine shop and have it fixed properly.

yeah Mitch, I was kinda baffled looking at the pto set up. That is a hell of a lot of weight hanging off that housing.....the only thing holding it on is the 4 small internal bolts. I guess maybe if you're on the road mostly it's not a big deal....It gets pretty bouncy in spots in my fields. Will definitely figure out some type of support for towards the back of the pump

 

[shopguy]

I bet it came with a strap on a bolt from one of the 4 big bolts on the back of the pump to one on the back box on the tranny.Did i miss something or was the tranny working ok without oil if so she will be ok. thanks for info on red oil mitch.

 

[monkey]

well I hate to admit to it......looks like from the inside of that housing...it's been dry for sometime. I do regularly check for anything leaking underneath...never have seen anything other than drips from the actual pto pump unit and hoses. Nothing from the bottom of the tranny or pto shaft area, so my assumption is it has been dry. I have probably hauled 600+ loads around my farm so far

 

[Willis Bushogin]

its called backlash in the gears
Right on Mitch, I couldnt have said it better