580B Shuttle problem?

[grapeman]

I have a problem with my 580B, and I have been reading all the forums to try an determind the problem. still have the problem. I can start up the tractor and let it warm up for 10 minutes. It has the shuttle trans. I put it in first gear and move shuttle to forward (or reverse) and tractor doesn't move. engine will rev but no movement. It kinda acts like it wants to but doesn't. I put outriggers down and lift tires off ground.
Put in gear, move shuttle to forward and right tire turns...kinda slow. If I push diff lock, both tires will turn. After spinning the tires for quite some time ( while still off the ground) i can lower the tractor and kinda coax the tractor back and forth until it slowly starts to move. Once i get it moving it seems sluggish and kinda like the motor is racing but the tractor is not responding to the increase in engine speed. After a while, the tractor starts to operate correctly and I can drive around like normal. If I drop the outriggers NOW and lift the tires off the ground, they both spins when I give it gas...not just the right one when it is cold. Now if I get off the tractor and let it set for 30 or 40 minutes, I can get back on and it works fine. the torque guage on the dash is behaving properly.

I did drill a hole in the bottom of the tranny ( as described in the forum) and clean the screen. It really was't that dirty, but I did that and changed the filter and filled the tranny with atf fluid. it worked better that before, but i still have the problem.

I am wondering if the problem is associated with the shuttle or could it be the brakes? I have had problems in the past with the brakes "sticking" and sometimes it feels like the tractor is being "held back" Could the brakes be "dragging" until they warm up or am I really off track here....?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. thank you.

 

[Spangles]

It seems to be a brake problem.

 

[Mike.580ck]

im by no means an expert but i have read tons of GREAT threads on here, and my machine was doing the same thing, the first thing i did was check the fluid it was very low, so i topped it off with oil and then another thread i saw on here was talking about the for lack of proper terms the shuttle valve connected to the clutch petal there is an adjustment and if its not adjusted right it wont move , mine you have to hold the petal down just a tiny bit and it works perfect but if you let the petal come up all the way it stops again, ill see if i can find the threads and bring them back up to the top but im sure before i do that some of the Experts will see this they are AWESOME help , i hope you get it going

 

[grapeman]

Ok, update here. I got on the tractor this afternoon after it had been sitting all night and day. It was warmer today, about 60 degrees. the past few days it has been cold , around 45 degrees ( that is cold for Calif!) Well, the tractor was sitting in the sun, I got on it, fired it up and with 2 minutes I was driving away! As it warmed up a bit more, it worked fine....I don't really understand this because I have have this "non moving" issue in the past when it wasn't really that cold. So yesterday, I struggled to get it to move....it took 15 minutes. today, no problem.

Any ideas?

 

[grapeman]

Another update on this issue. got on tactor yesterday, let it warm up and when i put it in 1st gear, forward, let out "clutch", guage working perfectly, tractor doesn't move....kinda like it wants to, but no go. put outriggers down, get both tires off the ground, engage all gears as above, it slowly starts to spin the tires. Get the tires spinning for a while, shift to 3 and 4th and get the tires spinning at some rpm for 20-30 seconds, put the tractor down it start to move and in in few minutes it will be fine. I am wondering of the problem is in the braking system and not in the trans/converter....any comments?

 

[fast_st]

I have this issue on an older 580, It has to do with the fluid type, it seems in cold weather the transmission pump cavitates and I can't get any drive pressure even though the gauge seems to come up to the green. I put the gearbox in neutral and the shuttle in forward or reverse and let it churn just above idle for a while, once its warmed up, it operates normally, symptoms are exact, Check your converter housing drain and see if there is any oil there. seems sometimes the converter seals leak and suck a bit of air when the fluid is cold, then puke a little fluid into the converter housing.

 

[LilJoe]

A couple things? Does this have a manual trans? You said "Let the clutch out". I own a 580C and it uses Case TCH fluid in the shuttle trans. NOT standard hydraulic fluid, I have been told. I don't think you have a brake issue. You did not say if the motor sounded like it was lugging when you were trying to move the machine. I have had some issues with a brake locking up and you could tell it was the brake.
I would buy a manual and read how to trouble shoot your shuttle issues. I bought a manual on CD on E bay for about $20. It is very nice to have all the info about your machine right in front of you.

I would have to guess your shuttle has one foot i the grave. Don't be to alarmed as they are not super expensive to rebuild. Now if you do, an you should, replacing the converter is kinda costly, around $600.

Hope this helps.

Joe Hynes

 

[fast_st]

Mine does have the simulated clutch/pressure unloader, I think when I did the rebuild, my dealer gave me a couple pails of hydraulic fluid, its a good bet its viscosity is too high. The shuttle rebuild was involved but not difficult, few dozen o-rings and cleaning up rough parts with an oil stone.

 

[grapeman]

OK, so I gave it another test today. Started up, and like suggested above, put trans in netural, shuttle in forward some rpms and let it run for 10 minutes. got on tractor, put in gear and no movement. Motor does not lug down, but responds to throttle. so, I put down outriggers, lift tires, and put in 2nd gear and give it throttle...tires slowly spins. this goes on for awhile, then after a few minutes, I can put it in 3 or 4th gears and really get the tires spinning. Once that are spinning for a minute, I can let tractor down and it will operate properly. If I let the tractor sit for a few hours, it will operate correctly, but if I let it sit overnight, i am back to the process as above. I changed the tranny oil and at the suggestion of the old timers at the local case dealer, i put in ATF fluid. He said it was lighter and would work just fine. He said the universal tractor 303 oil was a little thick for these old tractors. So I am back to thinking converter problem.....

 

[Mudpile]

Common for a 580B to do that as the temperature approaches freezing. #90-140 in the rear won't help. ATF mix may make a noticeable difference. I think Case was aware of the problem and right from the dealer the instructions were to raise it on the outriggers and let the wheels turn for a few minutes. You could remove the brake cover temporarily if there's a side that's not turning, when jacked up, to see if the situation improves. Install 4 bolts 1/2NCx1", in place of cover before running machine.

 

[grapeman]

Mudpile....this is a problem that just started to occur. I have had this hoe for 5 years and never had to go through all of this to get it going. Based on that, I would say that something is going wrong with something. When I have the outriggers down, and both wheels off the ground, are they both supposed to spin when in gear and forward or just the right side? Like i said, when I first start the process, just the right side spins. The left will start to spin after some time into the process. If I push the diffentrial lock, they both spin....?

 

[ijoker]

Hi Grapeman. I too have a Case 580b. I gotta tell you, you've got me stumped. I don't know if i will be any help. But maybe something i am about to say may give you some ideas. I only run THF in my shuttle. I read in a earlier post on this forum that ATF is not good for the seals in the pump in the shuttle. Others say that they have used nothing but, and have never had a problem. Still others say that a mixture of the 2 works good for cold operation. That being said, i know i need to let my machine warm up when it is cold, and it sounds like you know about that. I would think that after 5 or 10 minutes of warm up your machine would move. I know mine does. Sometimes, depending on how cold it is outside, the shuttle still will not have alot of power. Once the shuttle reaches normal operating temperature, it works great. This is just how these things are. From the way you are talking, i gather that even after 15 minutes of warm up it still doesn't move without raising the back wheels off the ground? That sounds weird to me. If the pressure on your gauge stays up when you shift the shuttle into forward or reverse, it should move. Unless it is just too cold. That sounds unlikely though, because when i talk about outside temperature, i am talking under 45. If we have 35 degree temperatures overnight, i may have to let it warm up a good 15 or 20 minutes. It sounds like your machine is moving after playing with it for a while. In which time it has had more time to warm up. Have you tried just letting it sit and warm up for 15 or 20 and see how it does? You said that you haven't had this much trouble with it before. And the way it is acting makes me think that there may be a problem with the pump in the shuttle. But i would think your pressure would drop when you put in gear. That is what is puzzling. As i am sure you know, anything hydralic works best when it reaches normal operating temperature. And i have been around things hydralic that seem like it takes them forever to move like they are supposed to when they are cold. And it can take an unbelievable amount of time for them to warm up. You could have drag on the brakes, but even that idea is busted if they work good during operation without drag. The whole thing just makes me think that your shuttle pump may be on the way out. But if your pressure doesn't change, whatever fluid you are using, it just doesn't make sense. One thing i just thought of ointhead , if the brakes are adjusted to where the shuttle clutch is not engaging all the way, that could be the problem. I had to do the brakes on my machine before and i seem to recall that when i was adjusting the brakes i got them to a point to where they were too tight or something and it was causing the brake pedal to be pushed so far down that it was holding the shuttle disengaged. I don't know. I hope i gave you some ideas. Like i said. You got me stumped. And interested. I would like to know what you find out in the end. Just in case i end up with the same problem. Which i hope i don't. Keep me posted. And good luck. :usa

 

[grapeman]

I too, am stumped on this.....I am leaning now towards the brakes. When the tractor is warmed up and working good, when I back up the brakes make sort of clicking noise. Doesn't seem normal. I am thinking that the brakes are hanging up when I start up the tractor, but after i get the tires spinning for while, maybe they "free" up and it works fine. Do you know how I should check the brakes to see if there is a problem with them? When I start the tractor in the morning, I have to go through the entire process to make it move....lifting the tires, getting the tires to spin, then it will move slowly and after awhile it will work fine. I have let it warm up for 20 minutes by itself, but still have to go through the above to make it move.

 

[Mudpile]

Grapeman, have you done the converter pressure test, when the machine is cold?

 

[grapeman]

Mudpile, I have not. How do I do that and will that tell me if the converter is working properly? I am relying on the guage on the dashboard. When I start it up it immediatley moves to the green area.
when I depress the "clutch" it drops to the red. When I release the pedal it returns to the green immediatley.

 

[ijoker]

Grape man, if the engine is not bogging down when you give it throttle when it is in gear, I doubt that it is the brakes. I have not tried it myself, but I would think one simple test you could do is with the back wheels off the ground and both trannies in neutral, engine and parking brake off, see if you can physically turn the wheels. I would say if you can do that, then you can rule out the brakes. I don't know if it is possible to physically turn them. But one would think so. You know, I was thinking the torque converter before. It seems like I have read on this forum that if there is a hole in the converter it can leak down after sitting for a while and when you do what have been doing to get it going it works because the turning action gets the fluid back in to the converter. When it sits again you are back to square one. :Banghead The only thing wrong with this theory is that you say there was one day you got on it and fired it up and it took off because it was warm outside. So here we go again.:beatsme I couldn't tell you how to do a pressure test, but if it were me, I would find out and do it. Joe

 

[grapeman]

Ok, still working on this problem. Yesterday it was 75 degrees. Got on the tractor, fired it up and within 30 seconds was driving away....no issues. Today, it was colder, low 60's. Got on the tractor, fired it up and no go....lifted the tires off the ground and could not get them to spin when I put it in gear. Tire on right side does not spin by hand. i tried to rotate it and it goes about 1 inch in each direction then stops dead. Tire on left side will spin by hand. I keep getting back to possibly a brake issue. Does it sound like something is locking up? If this is a problem with the brakes then that would explain why it happens only some of the time. any suggestions on how to check to see it it is a problem with the brakes?

 

[grapeman]

Update on above post. I got back on the tractor. Lifted tires and put in gear. left tires spins. Right tire does not. Turned off motor and tried to spin tires by hand. left spins right does not. Get back on tractor, fire it up, put in gear...left tire spinning, right not. Push down on posi-lock and hear like a "pop" noise and right tire starts to spin. Put on ground and away I go.....I think I am norrowing it down to something to do with posi traction or brakes....any thoughts?

 

[Mudpile]

Hope you don't have a major problem in the diff. Not a big job to remove that right brake assembly, then put the cover back on. The diff lock housing could be left off; remember one of the bolts is a socket head capscrew. Personally I would also consider putting a 0-60psi guage in place of the 1/8"npt plug, beside the converter high-temp sensor, and monitor it, should be about 30psi I think. Proper pressure to the clutch packs does not mean the converter is getting enough oil. There can be a lot of debris in the bottom of the shuttle compartment, easily plugging that pump intake screen again, or other oil supply issues.

 

[5150.4.67]

Sounds like you need to pop off the diff cover and have a look if you heard a "pop'. Common for carrier bearings to get loose a Case used a fiber washer of sorts as a shim to set up the ring and they fail leaving sloppy carrier which in turn wreaks havoc on machined parts. Hopefully you find missing teeth, which I presume you have. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.