328DLCR bucket to cab interference problems

[heymccall]

Falling under the assumption that Caterpillar Machine division and Caterpillar Work Tool division actually coordinate their products to work seamlessly together, we have purchased a Caterpillar 328DLCR with a Caterpillar Center-Lock Pin Grabber bucket coupler and a Caterpillar Heavy Duty 42" wide bucket.

The bucket, without a coupler, will NOT reach the cab. However, since we are in the year 2013, where most excavators are now equipped with a bucket coupler, our bucket coupler equipped machine will allow the operator to penetrate the cab structure by approximately 5 inches. This, to me, is unacceptable. This is not a "unique" configuration, like running a tilting bucket or other specialty attachments. This is a stupid excavating bucket.

So..........consulting with my Caterpillar online resources and my Caterpillar dealer, it was revealed that Caterpillar also catalogs "Power" buckets (with shorter pin to tip measurements), and "Pin Grabber Performance" buckets, both of which should have held promise in providing a shorter bucket structure, preventing cab interference, when used with a Caterpillar bucket. Bahhhh. My 42" HD bucket has a 64.5" pin to tip measurement (the bucket that interferes), and the power bucket still has a measurement of 61.2 inches, and the pin grabber performance bucket measures 62". WTF???? Why even offer these buckets if the do not allow interference-free use when attached to a bucket coupler???

Can anyone point me to a bucket manufacturer who has already taken the time and effort to solve this age old problem? The 325CLCR that we own (the 328DLCR predecessor) can shave the wiper and work light off the cab, but, will not damage the EXPENSIVE and certified cab structure itself. Cat promised one stop shopping and full machine/ attachment integration, and, I'd like to point out that they have yet to fulfill that promise, to me.

My favorite, I wanna reach through the PC, quote from Caterpillar is

This is why in cab r/s window there is a decal and in this machines O&MM,
Safety Section, there is a warning that states:

Crushing Hazard! Certain machine front linkage
combinations (boom, stick, quick coupler, work
tool) may require keeping the work tool away from
the cab during operation. Personal injury or
death may result if the work tool contacts the
cab during operation.


And O&MM, Operation Section; Operating Technique Information states:

With certain boom-stick-bucket combinations, the
bucket or worktool can hit the cab and/or the
front structure of the machine. Always check for
interference when first operating a new bucket or
a new work tool. Keep the bucket or work tool
away from the cab and away from the front
structure during operation.

Resisting the temptation to say offensive words, I find this to be arrogant on their part, as this is NOT one of the unique or specialty tools that we already own, for my fleet of excavators. It's a stupid bucket, and not a very large one, at that.

The general premise behind purchasing a 328DLCR over a comparable 329DL was that we could put the machine to work in narrow confines, and limit the interference and collision issues presented by buildings, utility poles, overhead wires, and other immoveable objects. Instead my operator is left with a machine that, when working in tights spaces, not only requires attention to it's surroundings, but also to it's own "built-in" interference.

Working thru other suppliers (and Cat), I feel as if I'm the only person to ever have this issue, and that crushing the corner of a $17k certified and rated cab, is acceptable, and, should it occur, that the blame should solely be placed on the operator.

And, don't kid yourself, bucket interference issues are not new to me either:
My PC128UU-2 has an expensive cab protection system built in, and Komatsu gave us the ability to program it when an aftermarket coupler was fitted. 9000 hours later, we have dropped the machine off a trailer, buried it under a mudslide, laid it on it's side in a fill site, electrocuted it 17 times, bent 4 bucket cylinder rods, bent the bucket links, set fire to it, run it on HOT asphalt, blown the tops off 3 sets off batteries (by improperly jumpstarting it), and never, EVER, has the bucket contacted the cab.

And, Takeuchi, god bless them, insists on putting the boom jack under the boom (on TB53FRs and TB180FRs), and, when an aftermarket coupler is installed, I had to shorten the arm cylinder by cutting the barrel and removing 1.5", so as to prevent bucket to boom cylinder contact, BUT, they were not engineered for a bucket coupler setup, hence the custom cylinder modifications. Takeuchi machine, Geith or WerkBrau coupler, and C&P buckets.

And, Kobelco, with the 235SRLC, also made no provisions to allow for the added length of a bucket coupler, and that machine only took 1250 hours before the bucket penetrated the cab by 4 inches, and, also again, at 4k and 6200 hours. A very expensive problem, to say the least, but, that was an aftermarket coupler that held no promise of "guaranteed fit" or an integrated solution. Kobelco machine, Geith coupler, and Esco buckets.

Again, Cat sold me a deficient package. And, they have no ability, or willingness, to solve my "integrated solutions" problem.

Thanks for the soap box :Banghead

 

[StumpyWally]

heymccall:
WOW!!! And I thought I was the only one who got upset w/ stupid design & lack of responsibility from "know-it-all" manufacturers, & that was on relatively small issues!! You have a REAL case.

I would demand that Cat refund you for your interfering bucket, & then go looking for a another manufacture's bucket with a 59" or so tip radius...maybe have one custom built...it would cost less than a busted cab, or worse, an injury. I know that is not an easy proposition.

Maybe a different coupler...NOT a Cat??

You've already mentioned all the quality makers that I would have gone to, Werk-Brau, Geith, Esco. How about Craig in Canada??

Keep us posted on how your battle goes with Cat. Be a real pest!!!

 

[Per Eriksson]

Is this for real?
An operator not able to keep his own bucket out of his own cab shouldn't be allowed within sight of any type of machinery.........

 

[StumpyWally]

heymccall:
Thinking about your coupler/bucket issue some more...I think CAT should take back/refund you for the coupler & bucket. Then consider a close-coupled coupler/bucket design, like the Klac from Werk-Brau. The advantage is that it does NOT increase the original pin-on bucket tip radius, so not only might it solve your interference problem, but it preserves the original design bucket breakout force. The downside, of course, is that you can only use it with buckets dedicated to that coupler, whether by design or by modification (i.e., cut off the original pin-on hangars & weld on the proper Klac mounting plate. Werk-Brau has them. The design comes from France.

Last year I moved to the Klac system for my NH EH80 CS (Kobelco 80) for the specific reason that it did NOT reduce my bucket breakout force. Because I didn't have confidence that my local welders could change my original pin-on Werk-Brau bucket to the Klac system, I opted for the certainty of buying another identical bucket already set up by Werk-Brau for the Klac. Consequently, I have my original bucket for sale, see https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?34766-Excavator-Bucket-24-quot-Werk-Brau

Know anyone who might be interested in my bucket??

 

[mitch504]

Per Eriksson, That's kinda what I was thinking, It not even like not banging your counterweight, your bucket is in FRONT of you

 

[heymccall]

Wally,
It's a thought, but, I've got four 9' grading buckets, 7 plate compactors, 3 NPK breakers, 4 sheepsfoot rollers, 6 tubular post tampers, 5 tunneling tools, and probably some others that it has to share at some point in time. A lot of those are running "C or CB" hinge widths, and can also be used on my 336, 330's, 328, 325, 324s, 322s, 321, and 320. The only tools there that present a cab clearance issue are the 9' grading/ tilting buckets, and in 17 years, I've never had an operator running those that has struck the cab.

 

[heymccall]

Per Eriksson, That's kinda what I was thinking, It not even like not banging your counterweight, your bucket is in FRONT of you

You take a 328 up an alley way, work between 3 utility poles, 4 garages, 12' overhead wires, and the tree that someone's great grand pappy planted in 1897, all the while, trenching a 42" wide, 19' deep, ditch, and loading the truck behind you.

 

[PAcattech]

:drinkup my thoughts too Per Eriksson

 

[StumpyWally]

...I've got four 9' grading buckets, 7 plate compactors, 3 NPK breakers, 4 sheepsfoot rollers, 6 tubular post tampers, 5 tunneling tools, and probably some others...

heymccall:
Got a nice rhythm to it....sort of reminds me of "Partridges in a Pear Tree"...but I see your problem, given the number of attachments you already have & the absolute need to share them.

So, I'm back to beat on Cat to either refund your bucket, make you a bucket with a custom tip radius, or take the refund & have someone else make the custom tip radius bucket.

And I still agree with you that given all the other obstacles in crowded work areas, you or your operator shouldn't have to worry about hitting the cab with the bucket.

On a much smaller scale, when I first got my 2005 New Holland EH80 CS (Kobelco), it had a stick-mounted Geith hydraulic thumb, that when you brought the stick all the way in with the thumb out, the tips of the thumb would hit the underside of the boom. The thumb was too long by about 2". I could see where others had scrapped up the bottom side of the boom, & I first thought that they were just being careless!! But after using my machine for a while, I found myself hitting the boom with the extended thumb very easily while I was paying attention to other more critical issues. It annoyed me so much that I finally dismantled the thumb, took it to a fabricating shop, had about 3" cut off the ends, & out rigger extensions welded to it, such that the extensions were spaced far enough apart to clear the outsides of the boom. The thumb really needed to be a little longer anyway to match the tip radius, & the wider-spaced extensions accomplished that. End of problem!!

StumpyWally

 

[j.r.]

what about running a narrower bucket that is taller and deeper? that way it cant hit the cab. A 36" bucket would probably work. I do have to agree with the other guys though if you cant see the bucket IN FRONT of you hitting the cab what else are you gonna hit?

 

[heymccall]

We're a utility contractor, specializing in sanitary sewer installation, of the municipal size. Bell and spigot SDR35, as a rule. To provide necessary ditch collapse protection, we dig our trench to accommodate Efficiency trench shields. 5" per sidewall, plus 32" for the spreaders, for a total of......42". I can't make the pipe layers any skinnier (to run narrower spreader bars), and haven't found any alternatives for ditch collapse protection, in the 8'x20' or 6'20' range, so, I'm left with a need for a 42" bucket.

And, for those who say, "any moron can see the bucket in front of them", we're hiring. Come play in our sandbox, and, prove that, while every other machine here cannot strike it's own cab under your control, or any operator's control, when trench excavating, that YOU can trench over and under buried utilities, between the poles and buildings, miss the wires and trees, all the while maintaining enough production to achieve 800' days, at an average of 17' deep, in Pennsylvania near Appalachian soil conditions, for 10,000 hours without damaging the cab structure on this machine. Don't forget digging to grade and stone backfilling from the stone boat (bedding box) you're also dragging around.

 

[Per Eriksson]

I still don't get why it is CAT's fault if the operator hits his own cab with his own bucket, is it CAT's fault when he swings his ass end into a utility pole or building too. I mean they should have made the machine a couple of inches shorter.......

Where I come from you are simply called stupid if you hit your cab with the attachment, and we run all kinds of things like forks, lift arms, grabs, compactors, grading beams and most of the time a rototilt is coupled between the machine and attachment adding another 2 feet to it's radius.

 

[j.r.]

800' of sewer 17' deep in the road is awesome production! you must have a hell of a crew to get that much in and backfilled up in a day. I run a hoe on a pipe crew so I understand what you are talking about but one thing I was told is "if it was easy anyone could do it". You cant have rammer jammer pulling levers in this type of work. If you have the precision and finesse to dig in those tight areas i would think you would not hit your own cab. I assume you have a smaller bucket to dig in the box and stone the ditch, how much slower would it be to load a truck with that vs the 42" bucket?

 

[d4c24a]

http://www.millergroundbreaking.com/products/buckets/the-scoop-bucket/

used to make the hitch,s for cat too

 

[heymccall]

Blown up, fractured, or footballed, nearly every Miller coupler here

 

[d4c24a]

the cat center pin coupler looks very similar to the miller still,cat marketed the miller bug as the cat pgp ,
anyhow i thought you were looking for a bucket to solve your operators problems ,which the scoop should

 

[oregon96pd]

So..........consulting with my Caterpillar online resources and my Caterpillar dealer, it was revealed that Caterpillar also catalogs "Power" buckets (with shorter pin to tip measurements), and "Pin Grabber Performance" buckets, both of which should have held promise in providing a shorter bucket structure, preventing cab interference, when used with a Caterpillar bucket. Bahhhh. My 42" HD bucket has a 64.5" pin to tip measurement (the bucket that interferes), and the power bucket still has a measurement of 61.2 inches, and the pin grabber performance bucket measures 62". WTF???? Why even offer these buckets if the do not allow interference-free use when attached to a bucket coupler???

So are you saying that it's Cats fault that you ordered the wrong bucket for your machine/work situation/inability to keep the bucket out of your lap? If I'm reading this statement right you ordered the wrong stuff, then later figured out what you needed and now it's their fault? If this is true and I were Cat, I'd tell you to get lost too.

 

[heymccall]

To clarify, there is no 42" bucket and coupler configuration that will not damage the cab, because the 328DLCR has the boom foot moved to the rear, in relation to normal radius machines, such as my 324D's and the 329DL.
Due to Cat's having moved the boom foot back, it wouldn't matter which 42" bucket of Cat's, or, anyone elses, because this one would need a bucket with a stick pin center to tip of tooth measurement of 57.5" to not damage cab structure (though you could still swipe the lights and wiper off).

Cat buckets @ 42" wide (center of stick pin to tip of tooth)
HD ........ 64.5"
Power .....61.2"
PGP.........62"

needed maximum measurement, 57.5"

I didn't order the wrong bucket. There is no 42" or wider bucket out there that I have found that will not have interference, because Cat moved the boom back...
I'm not even asking that Cat take the bucket back, or return my money. It will work just fine on a bucket coupler equipped 324DL, which, ironically, I have 2 of.

Cat engineering says that a Pin Grabber Plus bucket coupler adds 15.1" to the bucket's tip to pin radius, yet, I only measure 11", so, even they cannot tell me what they built.

Those of you who still think "any good operator can keep the bucket out of his lap", what about the days the regular operator isn't on the machine? The days when the it is loaded for transport by someone other than the regular operator?

 

[Per Eriksson]

It's called being aware of your surrondings and don't operate anything you aren't sure you can handle in a safe manner....

We have different transporters loading machines all the time by themself here and they don't go crying to the manufacturer when they run into a bridge due to not stowing the machine correctly on their trailers for example.
One fellow almost made it to the top of his trailer ramps when he slid slideways and nearly laid the whole show on it's side but somehow cleared the mess up.
Thankfully it has only happened twice that I can remember of and both times it was foreign drivers and old machines due for export to Africa or some place like that.
Many come and ask us to assist when loading due to them not feeling safe operating that particular machine and that's the way it should be done, not trying anyways and ****ing up.

 

[joispoi]

If you're that concerned about your operators hitting the cab with the bucket, you should keep the bucket for your other machines and get a low profile quick hitch and bucket that maintains the factory pin on bucket radius. Pin grabbers reduce the curling power and tear out force anyways.

If you order a machine with an articulating boom, you're going to have the exact same problem with the wider buckets.

The fact that Cat moved the boom back gives the machine more lifting power and stability than it would otherwise have since it's a limited tail swing machine. I can understand your worries about mediocre operators damaging the machine, but there's no way to redesign the machine to limit the bucket curl radius without reducing the machines abilities that contribute to its overall productivity.