• Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!

10km of trenching for 220kv Cables

Piltownmax

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
52
Location
kilkenny
Hi all,

I am starting a new project shortly. These are the steps involved:

1. Trench
2. lay ducts
3. encase with concrete
4. reinstate

All the project is on busy highways and trench boxes will be required.

I have sometime left to plan the works. Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers.
 

Piltownmax

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
52
Location
kilkenny
Seems like you have all the basics covered. What kind of information or advice are you looking for?

Thanks for your reply. I suppose the main issues would be digging around existing services and supporting them when they are unvovered to prevent sagging.
 

buckfever

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
813
Location
southwest pa
Gravel or concrete depending on depth to keep from sagging. As long as you have a good location company find all the utilities, finding them uderground is a differnt story. Just take your time and don't be scared to grab a shovel and do some exploring.
 

Piltownmax

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
52
Location
kilkenny
Gravel or concrete depending on depth to keep from sagging. As long as you have a good location company find all the utilities, finding them uderground is a differnt story. Just take your time and don't be scared to grab a shovel and do some exploring.

We have a pilot team who will go ahead of us and pothole for services based on the service plans. I will follow and bulk out with a larger machine. The hardest part of the job will be maintaining a daily output while protecting services at the same time. Also in regards to supporting the trench and existing services, has anyone got any ideas or pics on supporting the trench sides where services are present? Obviously a trench shield cannot be used where services run through the open trench.
 

Turbo21835

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
1,135
Location
Road Dog
Shoring under current services is accomplished with two trench boxes, one on either side, and then the gap between is usually closed with road plates on the inside of the boxes. As for preventing sag in utilities, I beams laid above the utility, across your trench, and some method of strapping or cabling the utility to that beam should suffice while you wait to backfill.
 

390eric

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
274
Location
pittsburgh PA
How deep are you installing? Whats the width of the trench? We usually just put a box on either side of an existing utility. If needs supported depending on what it is there are a variety of options anthoer machine. Something on top of ditch hanging down to it, just think about different things.
 

buckfever

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
813
Location
southwest pa
I should of asked first. For preventing sag after backfill or while the trench is open?

As for trench saftey, what 390eric said.
 

JDOFMEMI

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
3,074
Location
SoCal
Electric cable trenches are typically not verry deep or wide. Why not speedshores instead of trench boxes?

Then you are very flexible on the crossing utilities, and they are moved by men not machines. Very helpful on the edge of a road when you don't have room. Also, with concrete backfill, you need to leave enough trench open to lay pipe and pour in truckload amounts, so that would be a lot of boxes, making it hard to move them forward.
 

390eric

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
274
Location
pittsburgh PA
True JDOFMEMI most time when we do electric we never use boxes, not deep enough. Kinda why i was asking how deep these are going to be. Probably be best to have a couple concrete pours a day so not to leave a lot of open trench, sure with being on highways, you wont be able to leave them open overnight. Make sure to rebar, chair and tie pipe down good so it wont float in your concrete.
 

Piltownmax

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
52
Location
kilkenny
True JDOFMEMI most time when we do electric we never use boxes, not deep enough. Kinda why i was asking how deep these are going to be. Probably be best to have a couple concrete pours a day so not to leave a lot of open trench, sure with being on highways, you wont be able to leave them open overnight. Make sure to rebar, chair and tie pipe down good so it wont float in your concrete.

The trenches will be 2m x 2m on average and 4m deep in places. The conduits will be laid on prefabricated plastic beams and we wil tie the conduits to the beams.

Has anyone used a cat and genny to locate service?
 

d4c24a

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
753
Location
ENGLAND U.K
The trenches will be 2m x 2m on average and 4m deep in places. The conduits will be laid on prefabricated plastic beams and we wil tie the conduits to the beams.

Has anyone used a cat and genny to locate service?

yes we use them all the time ,and do all our own locating ,we do not use outside locate company's
best to get proper training on how to use one though

cheers graham
 

j.r.

Active Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2010
Messages
41
Location
baltimore
Occupation
hoe operator
where ever possible open cut the ditch for production like said above. if ther are spots that you cant due to space you might have to accept less production unless you have alot of boxes . if you can roll through the shallow parts you should be ok overall. how many feet per day are you looking at?
 

DGODGR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
1,064
Location
S/W CO
I would like more information before I could offer the best possible advice. When I was doing underground conduit systems we used Speed Shore almost exclusively. I was with (2) different companies, and had exposure to many others after becoming an owner/operator, all of which used the same system. It will provide the most flexibility for "in the street work". You did not say if the existing utilities are crossings, are running parralell, or both. I am wondering why you are digging so wide, and so deep. How many ducts are running in your bank, and what size, composition, and length of each joint are they? IME the width of the trench was always dictated by the width of the conduit run. We were only required to 3" of encasement on either side of the conduit, and 3" in between. I hope you are not digging 2m wide because that's what size bucket you happen to have. 10 klicks of trench is enough to justify buying a custom bucket so you can save on encasement and, I presume, slurry backfill. 2M wide, in my experience, is only required when one does not want to go very deep, and has a lot of conduits to run. Furthermore, I have only done wide duct runs on site, not off site (ie. in the street). Usually off site is in a public ROW and space is at a premium, as well as requiring a priority to keep the impact to the general public at a minimum, so one usually is required to keep things narrow. I am not familiar with the palstic beams you are talking about. We always used plastic spacers that you errected from the trench bottom. Either way (errected from the bottom or hanging from the top) one must ensure that the conduit does not float during the encasement process. I assume that the 4m depth is required while going under existing utilities. There are many other questions that are coming to mind while I type this reply. How much room do you have to work in? What type of traffic control will you employ. Are you replacing with dirt or slurry backfill? Are you even in the pavement, or on the edge of the ROW? Are you digging with rubber tired hoes or excavators? What size? I don't even know what a cat & genny is so sorry, no comment. In the situations that I have worked in, production can be obtained. You will most likely never get the same production as on site work but the price per foot should reflect that. I hope you have a good operator, and a good foreman. They will be the key to your success, or failure. When I was doing that type of work, almost all of the employees were career types who put high value in doing their jobs well.
 

JDOFMEMI

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Messages
3,074
Location
SoCal
DGODGR has it right, in my experience as well.

I would like to know more about the cat and genny. I have no idea what you are referring too.
 

d4c24a

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2006
Messages
753
Location
ENGLAND U.K
cat and genny info here http://www.radiodetection.com/
this is a requirement to have in the uk if digging anywhere that there is a possibility of other utility's
we cannot dig without one and the new ones we have have a chip in them that can store and download the usage of the cat , so if we strike a cable ,the company can check its been used on that job
 

Piltownmax

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
52
Location
kilkenny
I would like more information before I could offer the best possible advice. When I was doing underground conduit systems we used Speed Shore almost exclusively. I was with (2) different companies, and had exposure to many others after becoming an owner/operator, all of which used the same system. It will provide the most flexibility for "in the street work". You did not say if the existing utilities are crossings, are running parralell, or both. I am wondering why you are digging so wide, and so deep. How many ducts are running in your bank, and what size, composition, and length of each joint are they? IME the width of the trench was always dictated by the width of the conduit run. We were only required to 3" of encasement on either side of the conduit, and 3" in between. I hope you are not digging 2m wide because that's what size bucket you happen to have. 10 klicks of trench is enough to justify buying a custom bucket so you can save on encasement and, I presume, slurry backfill. 2M wide, in my experience, is only required when one does not want to go very deep, and has a lot of conduits to run. Furthermore, I have only done wide duct runs on site, not off site (ie. in the street). Usually off site is in a public ROW and space is at a premium, as well as requiring a priority to keep the impact to the general public at a minimum, so one usually is required to keep things narrow. I am not familiar with the palstic beams you are talking about. We always used plastic spacers that you errected from the trench bottom. Either way (errected from the bottom or hanging from the top) one must ensure that the conduit does not float during the encasement process. I assume that the 4m depth is required while going under existing utilities. There are many other questions that are coming to mind while I type this reply. How much room do you have to work in? What type of traffic control will you employ. Are you replacing with dirt or slurry backfill? Are you even in the pavement, or on the edge of the ROW? Are you digging with rubber tired hoes or excavators? What size? I don't even know what a cat & genny is so sorry, no comment. In the situations that I have worked in, production can be obtained. You will most likely never get the same production as on site work but the price per foot should reflect that. I hope you have a good operator, and a good foreman. They will be the key to your success, or failure. When I was doing that type of work, almost all of the employees were career types who put high value in doing their jobs well.

The ducts are 250mm in diameter and there are three. The spacing of the conduits and depth of the trench are based on the thermal resistivity of the surrounding soil. The deeper we go (if there are services present) the greater the spacing of the conduits must be. It is related to heat. Any deviation from the drawings in terms of encasement dimensions or conduit spacing can result in overheating of the cables and a voltage spike in the transmission corridor. We are using 25 tonne excavators for bulking and 5 tonne for piloting and digging around services. We are hoping to do 35 to 40 metres per day. Day 1 trench 35m. Day 2 trench 35m and lay conduits and encase. Day 3 trench 35m lay conduits and encase and reinstate trench. Day 4 trench 35m lay conduits and encase and reinstate trench and pavement. It will be a train system with a team for excavating, laying conduits, concreting and reinstating.

In terms of operators, I have done my homework and I have a guy with 30 years experience on the 25 tonner and a gut who is fresh off an inner city drainage job on the 5 tonner.
 

DGODGR

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Messages
1,064
Location
S/W CO
The ducts are 250mm in diameter and there are three. The spacing of the conduits and depth of the trench are based on the thermal resistivity of the surrounding soil. The deeper we go (if there are services present) the greater the spacing of the conduits must be. It is related to heat. Any deviation from the drawings in terms of encasement dimensions or conduit spacing can result in overheating of the cables and a voltage spike in the transmission corridor. We are using 25 tonne excavators for bulking and 5 tonne for piloting and digging around services. We are hoping to do 35 to 40 metres per day. Day 1 trench 35m. Day 2 trench 35m and lay conduits and encase. Day 3 trench 35m lay conduits and encase and reinstate trench. Day 4 trench 35m lay conduits and encase and reinstate trench and pavement. It will be a train system with a team for excavating, laying conduits, concreting and reinstating.

In terms of operators, I have done my homework and I have a guy with 30 years experience on the 25 tonner and a gut who is fresh off an inner city drainage job on the 5 tonner.

I'm not an engineer so this comment really has no merrit but I am wondering why the cable is generating so much heat. I know it's not your call, or your responsibility, but it seems to be a flawed system if there is so much resistance that it is making enough heat to have to design everything around that side effect. 250mm?! That's about 10 inches. Tha's big conduit. Regardless, You have not really answered all of my questions. I can see getting more trench than 35m (=/- 105'?) a day with a 25t trackhoe at 2m deep. Even if you are truck loading your spoils. Crew size will also have an impact and you have not stated that. I assume that you will shore along with the excavating. I'm not sure about the strategy to wait until you have 200' to backfill. I would rather BF every day. There is a lot of liability in excavating in a public ROW. Trench colapse, restoring traffic lanes (especially if traffic is driving over the trench while it is plated, yet open (even if shored) under the plates. Traffic impacts and vibrations can be hard to account for. It would be a big bummer to get the call, in the middle of the night, and trying to explain how you could have allowed a car to fall in the trench. Pedestrian traffic can be problematic too. I'm sure you see my point. In my day we would have mud show up at around 1 to 2pm every day. Encasement in, then slurry backfill. Leave slurry to asphalt subgrade, and install plates to allow restoration of traffic patterns. The next day we would pull all plates, stage for the days digging (leap frog them forward), and rough pave yesterdays trench. Final cap paving would take place at the end of the job. Repeat the previous days sequence. All vaults and manholes were installed before any main line digging took place. The most trench I ever dug, in the street, was 600' in one day (with an old Ford 655B). It was only a 12" wide trench but was 40-48" deep. All spoils loaded directly into trucks. Another recommendation, if you are allowed, is to pre cold plain your trench. After grinding it you can replace the millings into the trench, and tire roll it for a temporary driving surface. This allows the digging crew to only worry about handling (1) material (the millings will dig out with the dirt spoils as you dig). It also facilitates your exploratory pot holling to locate the existing utilites ahead of the main digging crew. At the end of the day (1) speed shore, in conjunction with a piece of plywood (if your ditch is narrow enough) can be used as a bulkead to hold back all encasement, and slurry. This should leave just enough conduit stubbed out to tie onto for the next days install.
 
Top