Case 580B shuttle pump...

[Phil]

Ron,
Book calls for TCH fluid. I do not know what difference there is between the TDH and TCH fluids, I've been meaning to check into it. I'm sure others on the forum can help with that. I have an old CK which has that buzzing sound for a minute every cool morning, and after having resealing the shuttle, it was really bugging me. So I changed the shuttle oil I have always used (TDH), it's cheap, and put in ATF. Someone else had done this on the forum, to help alleviate sluggishness, when cold outside, as all BCK's are known for.

I suppose the oil is about a 75/25 mix now, as I could not drain the converter. Great to try this on your own machine, anyway it worked, stopped the buzzing, so I think the change in viscosity may have helped. I had previously replaced the 2 seals under the shuttle pump with large o-rings from my metric kit. The correct sealing rings from Case are no longer available, they look like garden hose washers. I likely will never find out where the air leak was. One thing to check on these machines is the routing of the steel lines, along the hood and past the radiator, great place to rub and vibrate. Phil

 

[ronspowertrain]

580B Shuttle problem

Hey Phil, Got myself a scope to see inside the case. Unfortunately the end is larger than the last one I was using. It will fit in the fill hole of the torque tube but can't travel far enough to see the filter for the shuttle pump.I'm looking into an extension for it. When draining both ends of the housing, I keep getting too much moisture coming out. Lots of creamy oil before the clear Case fluid runs out. I've decided to flush the hell out of it with ATF fluid, several times and then flush out the lines and replace the filter again, I will see how much this helps before pulling the valve body, plate and pump out. Have you ever drilled a torque converter to help flush/drain a trans? Its a common practice in our automotive trade. You can drill through the front drain hole or timing hole, tap and install a tapered plug or bolt with loctite. Waddaya think of that idea? Would really clean up the fluid and moisture problem! Thanks again for all the info....I'm enjoying the mass amounts of knowledge I'm getting from this site.
Ron.

 

[Phil]

Ron,
You sound like an innovative individual. My feeling on the milky oil is that with an oil change or 2, you are getting most of it out, unless it's getting back into the compartment with every rain shower. A check at the drain plugs may reveal clean water, after the machine has set outside for a while. It may not be cavitation you have, usually more of a pulsing sound to it. Once working, the hot oil will out-gas any remaining moisture over time, but in the interim, of course, it's hard on machined surfaces.

I've never heard of a B oil cooler leaking engine coolant back into the shuttle oil, and likely you would recognize it in the oil as you start to drain. However oil coolers have been known to leak one way and not another, despite what seems logical.

The next machine I get, that I suspect has a plugged pump screen, I'm going to drill and thread for a pipe plug, maybe a 3/4", not sure. This should allow the area under the screen to be flushed(note debris in pic), possibly allowing the screen to be cleaned somewhat, by you and future owners. Not recommending this but I will try almost anything to learn. The bottom of the screen is about 1/2"- 5/8" above the floor of the torque tube. Just to the right of one of the 'blue' plugs, sealing the openings to torque converter, is the opening the pump pic-up tube uses to reach the bottom. Here are some reference pics. The shuttle assembly has been removed so you can see the countershaft and gears, as well as the end of the pick-up tube. Phil

 

[ronspowertrain]

thanks so much for for effort you give in helping out, these pics are a huge help. I am willing to split the tractor if I have to but I like to use my head first! Plus my back isn't what it used to be. Regarding the rain shower comment. I thought I was loosing my mind when i saw fresh drinking water come out of there once after it rained. About 3/4 litre! how does it get in? I even tried hosing the trans and looked for leaks. Is it pure condensation? or is there another way in? If it is condensation........then why not put a shut off valve on the vent when parked for some time, then open it when in operating season. what are your thoughts on the clear water? Can I access the screen through the back fill hole a long extension on the scope?
You've given me so much help that if you are ever up here in the Kawartha Lakes, I owe you a boat ride,snowmobile ride, or a hell of a good meal!
Ron.

 

[ronspowertrain]

was it the shuttle last night with scope extension and all through the case. got a good look at all but the screen on the end of the pick up tube. just cant seem to bend the thing the right way. corners of case have that milky oil all over showing the severe condensation issue. No clutch debris anywhere or signs of wear or damage that I typically see in an auto trans. Went up and down the tube from 2 bolts at top to close to bottom of it. I'm going to drill the bottom today and go through there for a better view of the screen. Have cool picks of the scope on my Blackberry. Trying to figure out how to post them for you. Ron.

 

[ronspowertrain]

580B Shuttle

I was able to drill a hole and tap for a 3/4 pipe thread directly under the filter screen for the shuttle pump. Not easy to do a thread that size in that cast! A 3/4 pipe plug fit right in after, very nice. The screen was covered in black, gray and milky stuff. I suppose the parts can be described as rubber bit, some metallic, black paste, oily condensation. I was able to clean it very well and flush the housing now that I have 2 holes. Lots of parts cleaner and air pressure got it done. I pulled the cooler lines off the top of the valve body and flushed them through to the filter housing by the rad. Cleaned it right out and installed a new filter.I filled the shuttle back up with 2/3 ATF and 1/3 TCH from Case. The tractor fired right up and after a 5 min warm up,the buzzing and vibe of before was completely gone! the shuttle pressure was higher than before,in the green, the shuttle hooked right up in both forward and reverse. has never worked this well. Has a very crisp engagement. I ran around the lot 5 min, then let her run for 20min at 1/2 throttle to get a good warm up while I went back to work. My son came in and I had him put 3 hours on it working it easy moving some gravel. then I told him to work it more aggressive in the the back loading wet soil. The machine eventually starts to slow down, meaning rpm gets higher and speed gets slower as fluid temp rises with the harder use, not abuse. A highest temp with my laser temp was 185 F at the fill hole.and at that point the speed was slow and too much rpm, this was 2nd gear. It has always done this when 2/3 or more throttle is used and loading heavy. A cool down helps, but what causes this? Torque slip is whats going on here but why? shuttle pressure doesn't seem to change. Clutches still engage well. Is it still moisture in the fluid boiling in the torque converter? Does the converter have a bit of air in it that heats up and causes the slippage? I gotta know whats up with this! Too many people here complain of the same symptoms. Any idea Phil? Anybody?
I have some great pics of what i've done on my Blackberry. I will put them on as soon as I figure out how to post them. I know how to e-mail them so I can get the kids to help with this!
I am going to flush the shuttle again to get rid of moisture. Hope that helps. Ron.

 

[ronspowertrain]

I must add that Phil's pics were extremely helpfull here. thanks so much for the help again and I hope my info will again help someone else. Will send my pics soon. Ron.

 

[Phil]

Ron,
Condensation takes a very long time to accumulate. I think you have a leak allowing rain water in. If the vent is in good condition, it should be okay. Can you garage the machine? The shuttle cover gasket ,at the back where the fill plug is, should be checked. The adapter plate gasket usually seals very well, but not always. The torque tube to engine gasket, and the starter gasket will usually leak oil if they are not sealing, but all things are possible. Easy to check the starter gasket anyway. Melting snow is worse in my opinion than rain, for penetrating certain joints.

The 580B in my opinion has a somewhat inefficient torque converter. This may be the design of the drive supporting it, not sure, but it is very noticeable compared to a 580C which uses a different unit. Flogging a B or earlier CK up a steep hill behind my house, in first gear, is normal. Drive up the same hill with a 580C or later model and it does it less than 1/2 throttle with ease. It was a complaint of some when the torque drive models came out when new, along with the sluggish when cold, problem.

Loading and moving dirt short distances is best done in first gear in my opinion. Using 2nd gear on a B, is best for traveling 100' or more on firm ground only. It would be interesting to monitor your converter charge pressure as the oil in the compartment gets warm. Shuttle clutch assembly charge/lubrication oil gets priority over the converter, I think.

You definitely had the shuttle oil warmed up. I have never been able to find the temperature, at which the sensor located on top of the converter pressure regulator valve, turns the dash 'hot' light on. As for water contaminated oil causing converter inefficiency(cavitation), yes that is possible I believe; possibly as would the lack of converter charge pressure. Phil

 

[ronspowertrain]

is there a test port for the converter charge pressure? the converter works so well up to the 140F point that when it starts to slip it is frustrating. must be something going on in there. can i test the converter charge pressure? it is different then the transmission pressure? im going to look in my parts manual and see if there is a separate valve to control this.

 

[Phil]

I'm not too knowledgeable on converter problems. You will have to get advice from others or research it. Check this thread out, top of first picture is the pressure test and all the info is in the thread that you need. https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/showthread.php?t=20335
The test port is a pipe plug beside the temperature sensor. By the way I would appreciate the distance from the vertical outside face of the torque tube, to the center of the hole(intake tube), that you drilled. Phil

 

[ronspowertrain]

I will get that distance for you, I am going to flush the tube again. It is approx 1/2 in from bottom of inside housing, just fit your finger between the filter and bottom but I will give exact measure. Had a large drill and rather large bit operating there, had to dig a 4" hole in the ground to fit the drill! Then used a prybar under the hadle for up pressure to drill the hole. Safety glasses and welding gloves a must here! Will post pics and results asap. Too bad my shop is usually too busy to keep the machine inside but i'm considering a new building for toys and soon a dozer anyway! Ron.

 

[Phil]

I had a feeling you had what it takes to try that. I take it your hole was right on? Phil

 

[ronspowertrain]

I went and opened up the 3 drain holes I now have in the torque tube friday . Opened them just slightly to check fluid condition and just as I expected, there was about a hand full of creamy fluid from each hole. I suspect coming out of the converter.then my son took it to build a 4wheeler jump out back! I told him to work it fairly hard and watch temp. He came back 2 hours later and said its working better again than ever. the trans pressure gauge is creeping higher into the green! He said after he worked it hard it was a little sluggish in third coming back from the field but yesterday wouldn't pull 3rd. temp made it to 181F. I'm taking my first weekend off since labor day so I'll get back to the machine on monday. I've read through the pressure test link here and have trans gauges at the shop.. I'm goint test all the ports and post the results. i will drain the tube and measure the screen to case specs as well. I must say i'm confident enough to drive the loader up the highway to the fuel station next week! Talk to you then. Ron.

 

[ronspowertrain]

case 580B Trans shuttle fix

Hey Phil, and all the rest of you with a sluggish 580B shuttle, here are pics of what i've done. The hole was drilled,(thanks to phil's pics and instructions), in the bottom of the torque tube housing right beneath the pump pick-up tube screen. The tube is 3/8" above the floor of the housing and the housing is 3/8" thick at that spot. So measuring up from the bottom, outside of the case, you get 3/4 " to bottom of screen, got it. Now, my hole is off a bit from center, so I'm giving measurement to exact center of tube. Looking at the 6 mount holes on the housing, the tube center is 3 1/2" exactly rear of back hole, left side of tractor(see pic). Hole is exactly in line with the left side mount holes (see pick).
So if you draw a line straight through left side holes back to housing and measure 3 1/2" back from rear threaded hole, X marks the spot! I drilled and tapped for a 3/4 pipe plug, and that gave me lots of room to clean the screen and housing. The trans pressure gauge has been right at the line between red and green for the last 8-10 years! Now stays as in the pic! well into the green zone. I'm running 50% case TCH & 50% ATF fluid. After draining a bit of creamy fluid out the 3 holes, twice, no more moisture and the machine pulls better than I have ever seen, Converter doesn't seem to loose it's hold any more like it used to. Rpm would raise and speed would slow up. I will move a huge pile of broken block one night soon, if that doesn't kill it, I'll head down the highway and uphill to the fuel station! Winter is coming and i've got 3 acres of lot to move snow banks, normally have to take breaks every 40 minutes due to torque fading out.I am going to check pressures at ports on valve body as soon as the cars stop piling in the shop. Thanks again to all the help found here. Ron.

 

[ronspowertrain]

By the way, I'm dying to know what the pressures are at the valve body, the pump pressure, and torque charge pressure so I know what does work on this particular unit and now I can check them if a problem exists. Manuals are god but I find that actual pressure reading when working well is valuable info in my field of practice. I will post them here. Ron.

 

[ronspowertrain]

While i'm playing with the 580B, I'm leaking a bit of diesel from the pivot at the throttle lever and the pivot at the fuel cut lever on the injector pump. Any suggestion how to repair that? We have a local diesel doc but I'd like to do it myself, Thanks, Ron.

 

[Phil]

Ron,
I have replaced the two 0-rings on that throttle shaft, while the pump is on the machine. As I recall the 2 screws that hold the shut-off lever to the shaft have to be removed, to give room for that portion of the throttle shaft to slide out towards the engine block. They are not easy to remove and may require shortening the tool(s) to do it. Leave the shut-off wire attached. Remove the pump cover to expose the clip. Cleanliness is important here. Pull or pry the clip off, as shown in the picture, noting that it needs to reinstalled the same way, and that it must still have the same tension or 'spring' to it, when installed. Nice to drain off some of the fuel in the pump so you can see what you are doing. Slide the shut-off portion of the shaft out towards the engine, you may have to disconnect #1 injector line at the injector to give just enough room. The other end of the shaft slides out easily. Sizing of the new rings is here is important, if the hole is worn, so there is a little resistance, . I think I used metric o-rings, not sure, but it's nice to have both Imperial and Metric kits on hand. Nice pictures of the plug-hole mod, good job. Phil

 

[ronspowertrain]

Holy crap Phil, You can pull a pic of anything outa that hat eh! Thanks again, I'll pull it apart as soon as I move that pile of broken blocks out back. Ron.

 

[frechele]

I have a 580b that was slow to move last year. my transmission gauge was barely in the green & would lose pressure dramatically when I flipped my lever into forward or reverse.
I took off the shuttle cover & removed the tube connected to the cover.
The screen was clogged with gasket material.
I changed all the gaskets, vacuumed all the dirt out of the transmission case & added a shim to increase pressure. All was well until last week while pushing dirt I started losing pressure on my gauge & slipping. After several minutes my pressure goes to 0 when in forward or reverse & slow to get in the green when in neutral.
Anybody have any idea what the problem is?

 

[Phil]

Welcome to the forum:drinkup
You might have the same problem again. Debris not found the first time might have worked loose with the jarring movement of the machine. This can and does happen. There is a large cavity in front of the screen that is very hard to clean. There are several other possibilities when pressure suddenly drops. I have never seen a stuck shuttle pressure regulator valve, or damaged valve assembly gaskets, or an internally collapsed oil cooler hose, but all these things come to mind. I have seen debris under the pump relief valve. The manual does suggest changing the shuttle filter, so I'll add that to the list. By first thought, though, is the pump intake screen. Phil