ZF Transmission Problems

[Tony Wells]

VeTech, this is actually a revisit project. I brought it up on another thread here (a no-no generally on fora) and I did get a couple of quotes from supposedly reputable rebuilders. One says they even cut and reweld torque converters in house, so that tells me they probably are a fair sized company and have made enough money over the years to invest in that level of service. A total rebuild, excluding extraordinary hard parts, and a rebuilt converter were priced at $14-18k, depending mostly on hard parts. That's still with me shipping, one way I believe.
I pulled off of this project for other broke down stuff, but it's come back, as I figured it would. I've been muddling over this situation a while. Frankly, I hate to part out the E, I just have a feeling it is a better machine. Both have been sitting for 3-4 years at least, I believe so there's not much telling what I'll find wrong. Sitting isn't good for these things, as I'm sure you know.

 

[Coy Lancaster]

I worked on these transmissions in Case machines and feel they are really reliable. Like Vetech said you need to test all the electrical and hyd. systems on this machine before you condemn the whole machine.

 

[Tony Wells]

mg, so you're saying that both of the machines in my situation have ZF transmissions? If the rain will let up I'll crawl around and see if I can find the tag on both to make sure. The E does for sure. Have a tag pic from that one. It's a 4WG-150 for sure. The G I can't easily see the trans tag on. If I understand you correctly, the G also has a ZF.

 

[mg2361]

If I understand you correctly, the G also has a ZF

That would be correct.

 

[Tony Wells]

Thank mg.

 

[John Ba.]

Hi all, I got ZF 6WG 200 gearbox, and the problem is that it goes to front, but backwards it tries to go, but doesn't move, parking brake is released, everything is released, it moves in front, but it just doesn't move backwards at all, tried going a bit up hill and then putting it into reverse, doesn't work, I thought I would ask you guys.

 

[Bigbert]

Hi John,
reading through your message I'm afraid one of the forward clutches is warped, either KV or K4.
Terex or Moxy dump truck? Or something else?
However before pulling out the box, you should check a few items.
Pressure check of clutches on control valve. You got a manual for the box? If not, please leave a PN, I could get you one.
When trying to run in R, what is engine speed? Like stall rpm (around 1800 rpm) or high idle (around 2200 rpm)?
Oil is clean? Or smells burnt? Any debris in filter? 6WG 200 got sinter discs, so shiny particles should be visible there.
When pulling away in 1st or 2nd or 3rd or 4th, which gears seem to run easier?
The even gears run with K4, the odd with KV.

 

[Tony Wells]

OK guys, this machine is back on the stove...

I messed with it a bit today and added some cleaner/additive I've had some success with in the past, and I guess I still believe in it. BUT....there's always a but...

Here's where I left it today, miracle juice notwithstanding. I have F in 1 and 4 only. 2 and 3 are like slamming on the brakes if it's moving, or stuck with parking brake on or something if trying to start in 2 or 3, it's just locked up. In R, I have nothing in 1, but 2,3 and 4 are pretty much normal. It took a while, but the juice cleaned and loosened up whatever was sticking the valves or pistons....but no effect on F2 or F3. This transmission appears to be pre-electronic. It has 2 levers by the steering wheel. One for FNR and the other for 1,2,3,4. It seems that these levers control a valve box that is hosed to the trans. It's a 4WG-150. It would seem like an incorrect pair of clutch packs are energized in F2, F3. R1 may be a separate issue. Does anyone have a clutch chart for this trans?

It's a J-D 544E sn DW544ED538074

 

[mg2361]

I PM'd you.

 

[Bigbert]

Hi Tony,

hope mg2361 got you some more info on the unit.
I'll get you the operators manual of a regular 4WG150 in PM.
However I can't tell you whether the 544E configuration is described exactly.
The two lever system usually was the mechanical shift system with no solenoids, only mechanical links and bars to spools. Is the valve box directly fitted to t/m housing or mounted somewhere separately? For cost reasons I'd assume fitted sideways on housing. (Deere always payed lowest prices)
Transmission got 4 speeds F and 3 speeds R, so position 3 and 4 in R are same clutches KR and K3.

Your description of behaviour is somehow strange. I thought KR possibly is seized, however 4F working is not possibly with KR bad.
Check pressure on control valve. And possibly share a few pics of transmission, shift lever and valve box. That might help to identify.

 

[Tony Wells]

Hi Tony,

hope mg2361 got you some more info on the unit.
I'll get you the operators manual of a regular 4WG150 in PM.
However I can't tell you whether the 544E configuration is described exactly.
The two lever system usually was the mechanical shift system with no solenoids, only mechanical links and bars to spools. Is the valve box directly fitted to t/m housing or mounted somewhere separately? For cost reasons I'd assume fitted sideways on housing. (Deere always payed lowest prices)
Transmission got 4 speeds F and 3 speeds R, so position 3 and 4 in R are same clutches KR and K3.

Your description of behaviour is somehow strange. I thought KR possibly is seized, however 4F working is not possibly with KR bad.
Check pressure on control valve. And possibly share a few pics of transmission, shift lever and valve box. That might help to identify.

Bigbert,
you mean my description is strange, or the behavior?

OK, I didn't realize the there really isn't a 4R. It's the same valving as 3R. That what you meant?

I'll get it washed up and get some pics. The valve box is located just under the floorboard, separate from the trans housing. The fact that it is mechanical should make this easier to diagnose. As I read through the info you provided, is seems that there should never be a "locked" position for the trans. It should freewheel in any gear, like going downhill, and it even mentioned there is no transmission braking. So it locking up has to be a clutch issue or something that is triggering the parking brake. I guess I could d/c that and see. That is, if it's the external drum brake that I think it is. There is no "Park" position or provision in the trans itself. In F2 anf F3, it surely won't coast. It's stopped dead. That's what has be puzzled. In R1, I have no drive, but it will roll. It is not locking up there. I think that's a different problem, or perhaps the 3 available R speeds are 2,3,4 and not 1,2,3. That doesn't make sense, but I'm not German (I'm Hungarian).

It will be Monday before I get back to that one. Meeting a tech about the EC250EL this morning, awaiting his phone call now. Looks like he's waiting for it to warm up. I'm ready for some Fall weather.

Thanks a lot, Bigbert.
Tony

 

[Tony Wells]

I PM'd you.

Thanks mg, that should help my understanding.

Tony

 

[Bigbert]

Behavior is strange, not description, Tony.
3rd AND 4th R got KR/K3, 3rd F is KV/K3, 4th F is K4/K3. So F 1,2,3,4, R 1,2,3.

As long as gaskets and seal rings are fine, there is no "locking" possible.
Are you able to disconnect parking brake? That is the drum at t/m output, cable or hydraulically applied, not supplied from control block.
Again, check pressures on control block.

 

[Tony Wells]

I can see the brake drum and I believe I can d/c the cable. I can't make the connection with trying to use F2 and F3 with its engagement though, but I have not looked specifically at that. If it isn't controlled by the shifter control box, what could make it engage in those conditions? There has been some electrical butchering on this machine, so if it's electrically controlled, then maybe. But why F2, F3 only? Is there some electrical function related to being in those two speed positions, probably not working at this time?

What pressure range should I be looking at? I need to read though that paper again, a time or two. I noticed on the first read-through a few typographical errors and odd word selections. I assume it was a translation from an originally German document. Not a bad job, just obviously not originally English. Tech docs must be the hardest to render into another language. My sister used to be an interpreter/translator, English/Spanish. OSHA docs and Safety Manuals are tough. So is law...she did dome Fed court stuff. It's legaly required to have an interpreter present at hearings, depositions, and court sessions if your English comprehension prevents accurate understanding. She also worked ER at a large hospital for about 15 years. Just retired, in fact.

Sidetracked....

 

[Bigbert]

Hi Tony again,

please share a few pics, so we know what we are talking about.
Frankly speaking I'd exclude the (mechanical) drum brake, but you (and I) never know.
You can disconnect and block the hoses to clutches to get a better picture of situation, but first step should be pressure readings.

Pressures to clutches are max. around 17 bar (approx. 250 PSI).

Yeah, these books were translated some decades ago straight from German with some misleading words and terms. Sorry for this. Isn't it Sunday tomorrow? Read through it and come back with questions.

 

[Tony Wells]

I have not taken any of her than the machine and trans ID tags yet. I believe there is a sheet metal cover that will allow better access to the control box so I will remove it and hopefully my wash guy will have done his bit by then so there will be usable pictures.
Among the things this machine needs is repacking both steering cylinders so if I pull them I won’t be able to do much test driving. If I bring it inside and lock the frame I can at least go forward and backwards a bit though. I’d rather not have it in the way right now though. There are already 3 projects running in that shop. One may get finished and out Monday though. Depends on how the 250 Volvo goes. That meetup deal for this morning didn’t work out so now that’s Monday morning.

No apology needed. I’m just glad to have it. Nothing is so “wrong” that it doesn’t make sense.

Since we can’t rule out the brake and I think it’s easy to disable, I will do that. Just to eliminate it from the suspect list if nothing else.

And yep tomorrow is Sunday

 

[mg2361]

that is triggering the parking brake

so if it's electrically controlled

Park brake and the transmission are all mechanical. If you disconnect the cable then the PB is out of the picture. I agree with Bigbert, that won't be the problem.

Most likely issue will be pressure to 2 clutches at the same time that are not supposed to be pressurized.

Pressure spec for that machine is 210-240 psi @ 1500 rpm with 150* oil temp.

 

[Tony Wells]

mg, I am in agreement that the P-brake isn’t likely. And I see no way there is a connection; as you said, it’s mechanical. The pedal in the cab is there and that’s all I can see connected to the drum mechanism. I’ve thought from the beginning that a an incorrect pair of clutches are energized when in the speed selector is in those two positions. If that’s the case, it seems likely that the issue is in the control box rather than the transmission itself. That will be a welcome finding if that’s what the tests show. I have no problem tearing it down and examining the internal parts if that’s what it comes to. I wonder who built that piece, Deere or ZF...

We have a Parker distributor here so I should be able to get those specific fittings. I don’t believe I have everything needed. Gauge and hose and some adapters but not that quick change for sure

I appreciate very much the help from you guys.

 

[mg2361]

Deere or ZF

ZF WG150

 

[Bigbert]

Hi mg,

Not sure whether Tony was only talking about control valve or entire box.
The remote control was usually sold on some cranes, perhaps a few dump trucks.
The remote system on 4WG I'm not sure. Especially in mechanical control.
Waiting for pictures.