Working Uphill

[terrasmooth]

What not to do in mass excavation.

Check out my latest article on dirt management.

www.terrasmooth.com

 

[buckshot_86]

Well said terrasmooth! I agree completely with your article.

I've run buggy for various outfits of different sizes, and in both large dirt hauling operations and the small, the bit of extra prep to set up the cuts and fills in order to work downhill makes all the difference! Quicker and easier loading, and higher speeds as well. Even in the certain situations the fill can benefit from this rule.

For example, I worked for an outfit moving overburden in a mine during the winter. It was in Alberta, and brutally cold so frost was for sure a problem. It was a large fill in the bottom of a pit, so we proceeded to build up one side for a shift, and the later on proceeded to unload while going down hill. This made it a lot easier for the 51's to unload and not get hung-up on frost slabs, but also actually shortened the distance of where we unloaded and what we had to bounce over. A lot easier on you by the end of the day.

Thanks for the link and sharing your years of knowledge and experience with us from your articles, I've enjoyed reading them.

 

[637slayer]

good article, lots of good info

 

[terrasmooth]

You are welcome, glad to see common sense being used... it is kind of rare these days.

 

[terrasmooth]

Thank you kindly... I am trying to help make the world a little better by sharing things it took me many years and much frustration at times.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . terrasmooth. Spot on. As a writer I like the way you get the information across in a straight forward coherent manner. Your articles will prove to be a valuable recource for folks starting out in the industry . . . and a reality check for others.

Constructing irrigation channels is the only job I can only think of where the best way was to load up hill. It was pretty much a balanced cut/fill in nice farming dirt with J621's. We cut a slope from grade to surface and then turned and dumped back along the edge of the cut building up the banks.

It worked a treat and the old (new then) J's would **** a leg when they turned off the bank and down the 2:1 to get back into the cut. for some reason the elevators were better than the open bowl 621's that seemed to get hung up a bit with their nose/battery box whatever ploughed into the bottom of the channel with a back wheel in the air.

Cheers.

 

[terrasmooth]

Yair . . . terrasmooth. Spot on. As a writer I like the way you get the information across in a straight forward coherent manner. Your articles will prove to be a valuable recource for folks starting out in the industry . . . and a reality check for others.

Constructing irrigation channels is the only job I can only think of where the best way was to load up hill. It was pretty much a balanced cut/fill in nice farming dirt with J621's. We cut a slope from grade to surface and then turned and dumped back along the edge of the cut building up the banks.

It worked a treat and the old (new then) J's would **** a leg when they turned off the bank and down the 2:1 to get back into the cut. for some reason the elevators were better than the open bowl 621's that seemed to get hung up a bit with their nose/battery box whatever ploughed into the bottom of the channel with a back wheel in the air.

Cheers.

There are some specific situations that may call for, or only be able to be done uphill. I know that when finishing with a blade; you can "feel the grade" better working uphill and when picking up windrows with a paddle wheel works better uphill. Diving off a 2:1 slope of any appreciable height in a scraper is definetly not for the faint of heart! I appreciate your imput Scrubpuller... I am sure you could probably teach me something with your experience.

 

[crayton]

A few years back I stoped at an interchange job on I 90 in eastern Washington. Being an old dirt stiff and scraper operator I thought I would just enjoy a time watching a well respected outfit move dirt. I was amazed to see them loading scrapers uphill, about 10 ft rise and pretty steep. The cut was about 1/2 mile long and they were at the far end working toward the finished road. They were using two D-!0s in tamden to load 631's straight up the bank. Plenty of power and the scrapers came out running over. Being at this for a long time and a lot of time loaded by a push cat with less than enough power it was firmly entrenched in my mind to load downhill. The guys with the white hats were on the other side of the cut so nobody to ask and I didn't want to ask stupid questions so I decided to sit there till I figured it out.This took about 2 hours because the downhill thing was so firmly planted in my brain I couldn't see any reason to do it. Finally, finally it dawned on me because i had worked a job a few miles south almost 50 years ago that the soil was prone to wet or boggy spots down deep and they were atempting to keep their loaded scrapers off the finished grade and not having to travel on the finished grade to keep the ground from pumping up. The work to fix those spots always came at the contractors expense because he caused them by beating the roadbed to peices with his heavy equptment. Finally figured it out but it took some time as downhill was the only way for me.

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . .

I appreciate your imput Scrubpuller... I am sure you could probably teach me something with your experience.

Nah, don't think so terrasmooth. From your writting you are more on top of general dirt contracting than I ever was. We just did some odd-ball jobs as best we could.

crayton. So I'm not only old hand that pulls up to watch?

Interesting situation you describe but I have to say most times I wonder what the hell they're doing and can't ever figure it out. Classic was a few years back on the highway near my house. Open bowl 21's and a Wabco loading north and hauling south. Asked a young bloke in a hard hat what was going on and he reckoned that was just the ways the boys had started off that morning, couldn't see the problem.


Cheers.

 

[crayton]

SCRUBPULLER--
Another thing that I noticed was that the dirt was entering the can at about horizontal instead of having to rise up so it filed easy and really gave a load. Also kept the gougers or hole diggers off the finished grade. Not many slobbers at the top either. I guess the fact that the grade was not messed up and once they were done it was done payed for the extra fuel and horsepower. Also the scraper hands could stick her in the muck as deep as they wanted to and nobody cared. Fun to watch.

 

[Buckethead]

. Finally, finally it dawned on me because i had worked a job a few miles south almost 50 years ago that the soil was prone to wet or boggy spots down deep and they were atempting to keep their loaded scrapers off the finished grade and not having to travel on the finished grade to keep the ground from pumping up. The work to fix those spots always came at the contractors expense because he caused them by beating the roadbed to peices with his heavy equptment.

You figured it out because you've been in the seat. I get mad at people who have never run equipment who insist that the way they read in a book is the only way, because they can't figure things out through observation of specific situations the way you did. (No, I am not saying that about ANYONE on this forum) In the real world you are not always going to be able to load downhill. You don't want to drag loose dirt onto what's already been graded.

 

[Buckethead]

SCRUBPULLER--
Another thing that I noticed was that the dirt was entering the can at about horizontal instead of having to rise up so it filed easy and really gave a load. Also kept the gougers or hole diggers off the finished grade. Not many slobbers at the top either. I guess the fact that the grade was not messed up and once they were done it was done payed for the extra fuel and horsepower.

That's a good point regarding dirt entering the bowl. If you're loading downhill gravity is kind of pulling the dirt away from where you want it to go.

 

[terrasmooth]

A few years back I stoped at an interchange job on I 90 in eastern Washington. Being an old dirt stiff and scraper operator I thought I would just enjoy a time watching a well respected outfit move dirt. I was amazed to see them loading scrapers uphill, about 10 ft rise and pretty steep. The cut was about 1/2 mile long and they were at the far end working toward the finished road. They were using two D-!0s in tamden to load 631's straight up the bank. Plenty of power and the scrapers came out running over. Being at this for a long time and a lot of time loaded by a push cat with less than enough power it was firmly entrenched in my mind to load downhill. The guys with the white hats were on the other side of the cut so nobody to ask and I didn't want to ask stupid questions so I decided to sit there till I figured it out.This took about 2 hours because the downhill thing was so firmly planted in my brain I couldn't see any reason to do it. Finally, finally it dawned on me because i had worked a job a few miles south almost 50 years ago that the soil was prone to wet or boggy spots down deep and they were atempting to keep their loaded scrapers off the finished grade and not having to travel on the finished grade to keep the ground from pumping up. The work to fix those spots always came at the contractors expense because he caused them by beating the roadbed to peices with his heavy equptment. Finally figured it out but it took some time as downhill was the only way for me.

There are exceptions for every rule...I understand not wanting to "pump" good grade. Many times a lead scraper hand knows more than the pimple faced supervision I have seen in recent years.

 

[terrasmooth]

You figured it out because you've been in the seat. I get mad at people who have never run equipment who insist that the way they read in a book is the only way, because they can't figure things out through observation of specific situations the way you did. (No, I am not saying that about ANYONE on this forum) In the real world you are not always going to be able to load downhill. You don't want to drag loose dirt onto what's already been graded.

You do definetly drag "tails" down on the finished grade... after they built up I would take the "cans" down and clean them up periodically.

 

[durtmvr]

There are exceptions for every rule...

Years ago I worked for a contractor in Tucson. First day on the job we dropped our 21s off of a pioneered road that went into a cul de sac. It was about a 2:1 drop 70 or 80 feet. We had to carry the cans an inch off the ground with the ejectors forward and diff lock on to make it just about to the top when the push cat would latch up so we could get our 1/4 load. Only had to do it for a few hours but realized the pushcat didn't have enough nut to push a loaded scraper up the hill, couldn't disturb the desert around the road and the way that the terrain was set up in the cul de sac you couldn't really push material down without disturbing the 404. This was with a very respected company in my mind that does stuff right the first time. I still don't know if it was right or wrong. On one hand, it could have been fixed by having the dozer muck it out pushing it into a 3:1 or something and laying it in the road, or they could have tracked a 245 over that was on site. It worked though and at least the dirt wasn't moved twice!

 

[durtmvr]

I read your article and found it spot on. A few things to possibly enhance for those that thirst for knowledge. Instead of stringline, I prefer fishing line. Sags a lot less especially on those long pulls with no 1/4 hubs. When grade checking I prefer the "California" system with an enhancement. When slope staking I will put a swinger ribbon on the top of the lathe that I carry down. The swinger uses 0-1-2-4-8 ribbons. Blue, White, Red, Yellow and Green respectfully. This way my cat skinners and blade hands can see how much cut from the stake without having to read the grade when they get close (also because I have worked for a bunch of cheap contractors that do not like to buy lathe so I don't write on them for reuse). This will allow up to a 15' reference on the stake. (Green, Yellow, Red and White 8+4+2+1=15) If mixed with a blue it is # feet to grade.

I really found your finish blade section spot on. I am amazed how you put into words what I know but haven't been able to express in words. Anymore, in Phoenix here anyway I have noticed these real thin pave sections between the curb. 2" with a 1/4" roll so 1 3/4" off of lip of curb. What a nightmare.......Not so much cutting the grade, but more so dealing with the poor craftsmanship of the curb being installed. With the cutting edge riding so high near the rolled edge on the curb and the "unfinished" curb and "sweeps" at expansion joints it is all to easy to spald the curb. It is almost to the point where I will let a laborer make the final grade and screed from that. Curb shoes are taboo around here these days for a few reasons I think. 1. Too many guys didn't realize that you need to saturate the curb with water when running a shoe to avoid spalding and 2. With the poor concrete work I have seen, it is next to impossible to run a shoe without tearing up the curb..........But boy am I addicted to the smell of burning concrete!

Keep up the good work hand.

 

[Hubanator]

Hi durtmvr, what job were you on in Tucson with the cul de sac? I work in Tucson what you described sounds familiar to me. What company if you don't mind me asking?

 

[terrasmooth]

I read your article and found it spot on. A few things to possibly enhance for those that thirst for knowledge. Instead of stringline, I prefer fishing line. Sags a lot less especially on those long pulls with no 1/4 hubs. When grade checking I prefer the "California" system with an enhancement. When slope staking I will put a swinger ribbon on the top of the lathe that I carry down. The swinger uses 0-1-2-4-8 ribbons. Blue, White, Red, Yellow and Green respectfully. This way my cat skinners and blade hands can see how much cut from the stake without having to read the grade when they get close (also because I have worked for a bunch of cheap contractors that do not like to buy lathe so I don't write on them for reuse). This will allow up to a 15' reference on the stake. (Green, Yellow, Red and White 8+4+2+1=15) If mixed with a blue it is # feet to grade.

I really found your finish blade section spot on. I am amazed how you put into words what I know but haven't been able to express in words. Anymore, in Phoenix here anyway I have noticed these real thin pave sections between the curb. 2" with a 1/4" roll so 1 3/4" off of lip of curb. What a nightmare.......Not so much cutting the grade, but more so dealing with the poor craftsmanship of the curb being installed. With the cutting edge riding so high near the rolled edge on the curb and the "unfinished" curb and "sweeps" at expansion joints it is all to easy to spald the curb. It is almost to the point where I will let a laborer make the final grade and screed from that. Curb shoes are taboo around here these days for a few reasons I think. 1. Too many guys didn't realize that you need to saturate the curb with water when running a shoe to avoid spalding and 2. With the poor concrete work I have seen, it is next to impossible to run a shoe without tearing up the curb..........But boy am I addicted to the smell of burning concrete!

Keep up the good work hand.

Thanks for the kind words and advice... I will be writing more as time and inspiration allow.

 

[durtmvr]

Hi durtmvr, what job were you on in Tucson with the cul de sac? I work in Tucson what you described sounds familiar to me. What company if you don't mind me asking?

It was in the early 90s. Although the first yellow iron that Borderland had seen in some time, not the first yellow iron Borderland owned. My understanding is that Borderland started out with 51s then got all those green weenies. Anyhow, the 21s were the first cat conventional scrapers to hit the company in quite some time and they started on that job up in the foothills somewhere off of Pontatoc North of River as I recall. I remember the grades were steep, you couldn't turn around without nosing over, large cut stuffed in corners, lots of bones, red clay and do not disturb outside of grading limits and a hard nosed 8L pushing with a wild cat skinner onboard. I met an old grade checker there named Ed Pauly and learned the value of using a Brunton for slope staking. Although Borderland has never paid a decent wage I still have the utmost respect for their finish product. You can always tell if Borderland finished the job or some joke in town. JMO