Working the National 1300A

[Natman]

On a 7 hr hour truss job yesterday, after setting the last few on a deck roof, that had one support beam temporarily supported (common here, the main house foundation done first, much later they will put the piers in for any deck support, in the meantime the framers want to get going, so you see 8 or 10' of deck roof bearing on beams, one end tied into the house, the other held up with temp support) and while I still had ahold of the sheeted gable truss, it collapsed. The two carpenters rode it down, while in the middle of the trusses, about 10', maybe 12' high, a bit of snow but not enough to cushion, uneven ground with some rocks. Meanwhile, the sheeted gable truss stayed where it was, suspended by me. One of their supports had failed obviously. They are older guys, well into their 40's anyway, and they didn't get hurt at all! Tangled up as they were on the way down....it could have got real ugly, not to mention a third guy on the crew could have been under it when it came down. And....if they had finished plumbing the gable, what they were doing when it happened, the next move would have been for me to cable down and unhook, and they would have had the extra weight of it to contend with on the way down. I told them they better buy some lottery tickets, they were lucky SOB's! The trusses didn't even get broken.

 

[skyking1]

Unless one of them was the boss they should be getting two checks for free. That is some terrible corner cutting. Everybody I know who temps in something is usually paranoid about it and it is more better than the final product.

 

[Natman]

The boss fell, along with his buddy, call them co owners of the business. I think complacency got them, they've been framing houses for decades, not their first rodeo by a long shot. What would have really presented a legal nightmare, would have been if the hired hand was under it when it fell, and got hurt. Being that they are the bosses, they at least can keep it "in house." My best guess is, when they put one end of the microlam in the house beam pocket, they put one nail in it, and got side tracked leveling it and nailing the 2x4 support on, and than forgot to put more nails in the pocket. The support was on a 45 angle, so with a load on the microlam, exerting a bit of pull away from the house, and if memory serves me right, the part nearest the house fell first. When I go back they'll have it puzzled out. Call it sloppy work, or getting distracted, they for sure know how to do it right but slipped up (down actually...) here.

 

[Natman]

Did the math, because the carpenters on a job a couple days ago had me set a big sheeted gable first, and then every truss after had to be lifted up over it, I had to winch an extra 1000' more or less. That's counting up and down. No reason for this other than ignorance on their part.

This drives me crazy, as a recovering carpenter myself. If the house is laid out, the top plates all marked as they should be I show up, just because they started their layout from the south end, doesn't mean we have to set the trusses that way! 4.5 hours job, the same subdivision but with a sharper crew, it's 3.5 hours. I work by the hour so I shouldn't' care, but I do, it offends my old carpenter common sense. Like when I see a guy fully nailing off (especially hand nailing) the truss at the plate, before unhooking me. DUDE..GET ONE NAIL IN THERE, GET YOUR TOP STABILIZER IN, AND UNHOOK ME! You think 4 more nails at the truss heel is going to keep it from tipping??! You can nail the heck out of it if you want while I'm getting the next truss, or even after I leave, 1 nail will keep it on layout just fine! None of my truss setting competition in my area were carpenters for 35 years like me, which sets me apart for better or for worse. Sometimes it's gotten to the point where I want to tell a crew, "I don't care if you ever use me again, you are doing it wrong, and if I was the bossman you'd be down the road!" I don't, they have no idea what I used to do, but I sure think it. My 300 th. job of the year is coming up this year, and I'm just getting cranky I guess.

 

[petepilot]

Did the math, because the carpenters on a job a couple days ago had me set a big sheeted gable first, and then every truss after had to be lifted up over it, I had to winch an extra 1000' more or less. That's counting up and down. No reason for this other than ignorance on their part.

This drives me crazy, as a recovering carpenter myself. If the house is laid out, the top plates all marked as they should be I show up, just because they started their layout from the south end, doesn't mean we have to set the trusses that way! 4.5 hours job, the same subdivision but with a sharper crew, it's 3.5 hours. I work by the hour so I shouldn't' care, but I do, it offends my old carpenter common sense. Like when I see a guy fully nailing off (especially hand nailing) the truss at the plate, before unhooking me. DUDE..GET ONE NAIL IN THERE, GET YOUR TOP STABILIZER IN, AND UNHOOK ME! You think 4 more nails at the truss heel is going to keep it from tipping??! You can nail the heck out of it if you want while I'm getting the next truss, or even after I leave, 1 nail will keep it on layout just fine! None of my truss setting competition in my area were carpenters for 35 years like me, which sets me apart for better or for worse. Sometimes it's gotten to the point where I want to tell a crew, "I don't care if you ever use me again, you are doing it wrong, and if I was the bossman you'd be down the road!" I don't, they have no idea what I used to do, but I sure think it. My 300 th. job of the year is coming up this year, and I'm just getting cranky I guess.

time for a break

 

[NM94]

Did the math, because the carpenters on a job a couple days ago had me set a big sheeted gable first, and then every truss after had to be lifted up over it, I had to winch an extra 1000' more or less. That's counting up and down. No reason for this other than ignorance on their part.

This drives me crazy, as a recovering carpenter myself. If the house is laid out, the top plates all marked as they should be I show up, just because they started their layout from the south end, doesn't mean we have to set the trusses that way! 4.5 hours job, the same subdivision but with a sharper crew, it's 3.5 hours. I work by the hour so I shouldn't' care, but I do, it offends my old carpenter common sense. Like when I see a guy fully nailing off (especially hand nailing) the truss at the plate, before unhooking me. DUDE..GET ONE NAIL IN THERE, GET YOUR TOP STABILIZER IN, AND UNHOOK ME! You think 4 more nails at the truss heel is going to keep it from tipping??! You can nail the heck out of it if you want while I'm getting the next truss, or even after I leave, 1 nail will keep it on layout just fine! None of my truss setting competition in my area were carpenters for 35 years like me, which sets me apart for better or for worse. Sometimes it's gotten to the point where I want to tell a crew, "I don't care if you ever use me again, you are doing it wrong, and if I was the bossman you'd be down the road!" I don't, they have no idea what I used to do, but I sure think it. My 300 th. job of the year is coming up this year, and I'm just getting cranky I guess.

Hell we have a boom truck for setting trusses so we don’t have to deal with an operator and still try to go as fast as possible by putting two screws in the heel and one row of lathing down the center to get the crane gone. If we ever hire an operator, we won’t stop until the crane is off the job.

On working over a gable truss, that’s just ignorance. On a job we have now, I had to keep setting cantilever trusses over the previous one and it drove me nuts but that was the only way. My new to me 20 ton could of done it better but thanks to tight quarters and semi traffic, still had to use a little national 400 since it’s footprint is smaller. Doesn’t help either that a half million in fertilizer hoppers are directly underneath us.

 

[Natman]

THATS a cantilever!
After my whiny and complaining post yesterday, my first job today was with a crew that I grudgingly had to admit was ALMOST as good as I was, back in the day, ha ha. It's a joy working with the good crews, especially the good crews who pay cash. Things are going so good for me (I've never made more money, more easily) I guess I had to find something to complain about. I vaguely remember when I was pushing 50 and still framing houses, ("how much longer can I do this, and why don't I have any retirement plan") now I can keep craning until I drop, or can't find the keys. A couple years ago, I started leaving the keys in it, problem solved.

 

[dirty4fun]

So many people work so hard, if they would only think a little more they could do the job much easier and faster. I set trusses with a skid steer with boom, sometimes in some very tight spots where it is impossible to see but what is in front of you. I only do it for our own building and couple friends. I am amazed at how they can't give you good directions when I can't see the truss. How they make an easy job so tough. I had to tell one crew, no because they aren't safe, and keep getting their workers hurt by doing stupid stuff.

 

[skyking1]

I get that, Natman. They wanted me to start with a new crew putting up glass in the blind on the far side of a skybridge. That was a hard NO, we will figure out how to get the truck back there.

 

[Natman]

Getting set up yesterday, I had one outrigger beam seize up about 3/4 of the way out, just stopped. Retracting it didn't work either, it just moved about 1/2" and then stopped again. No hydraulic leak, hmmmm. I cycled it a couple more times and then stopped when I heard a "bad noise." I told the waiting carpenters we were done, ain't gonna happen today, and luckily got ahold of the heavy equipment mechanic I use and 30 minutes later he was there with his service truck.

The first thing we noticed when the access cover was off, was that the hydraulic cylinder's rod was bowed, not good. After capping the lines off (after making a run to a nearby hose shop to get the right caps) we were ready to pull the cylinder, but first we had to get the beam in. After two of us pushing on it didn't work, we got the 1/2 ton chain comalong he had out and gave it a tug, still didn't move. Then I had the idea of using the opposite side beam's extension process to also help. Turned out that the comalong pulling down low, and the other beam helping on the top, did the trick. I really didn't want to leave the rig there over the weekend, but couldn't drive it as it was, so extreme measures were called for. We got our rigging bound up with it still out a foot, but figured that was good enough to get me down the road, so stopped there. We got the hyd cylinder to a great local shop we have here right before he closed, and I'll find out Monday if he will be able to straighten it or have to fab a new one (the rod) out of raw stock. It looks like, hopefully, the repair can be handled locally. I'm not worried about the hyd repair, so much as why that beam bound up, we could not see anything where it shouldn't be, but we didn't have the best lighting.

I'm going back today with some spotlights and a borescope on a 6' cable and hopefully can snake it in there and really get a good look and see why the beam is so hard to move. Then I have to see if I can do my Monday thru Wednesday scheduled jobs by working off the opposite side of the bad beam and a bit of the front only, as the down cylinder works as normal, so if I can keep working in the meantime I will. All truss jobs, no weight but some with a pretty good reach. I also have to decide if I will try to get it in the rest of the way, or maybe get an over width permit and flag it. Luckily the upcoming jobs only require shorter drives on an interstate, I have no idea if I can do that legally.

 

[skyking1]

my gut says box or outrigger got deformed. Not happy news, but if you don't have some removable wear pads inside the box or outside the outrigger, there is no other likely culprit.

 

[DMiller]

I would be game to consider extend cylinder pin has shifted, into the side guide plates and got that boogered up. About the only real way to know is pull the Outrigger Box all the way out and Off.

 

[crane operator]

I'm not sure how you got the cylinder out the other side. Pop the outer pin and then pulled out through the round inspection hole? I've always pulled the two bolts that hold the carrier side of the cylinder, disconnected all the hoses, then pulled the full box beam totally from the carrier, and then pulled the cylinder from the beam.

Do all your box beams have those plates on the bottom, some online pictures have them and some don't.

I've got a few theories- one is a big chunk of frozen ice or snow in it. One is a tangled hydraulic hose- or the steel guide for the hose. If either one of those got loose in there, I could see them tangling up.

Then there is the possibility of a wear pad getting off one of the bolts/ holders and getting wedged in there. Either way- if you have the rod bent, its wedged up pretty good.

 

[Natman]

Skyking: Everything eyeballs perfect, straight and no deformations etc.
Dmiller: I want to pull it out on general principles, and make sure we don't bugger the repaired rod.

CraneOp: Mine is slightly different, it has plenty of room to get it out once the inspection cover is taken off, without removing the beam. I really like the chunk of ice theory, (wishful thinking maybe, BUT...now that I think of it, it was left out on a job site the night before, with everything extended, and that never happens, it's always in my heated shop) and I will go with that if we can't find anything else.

It sucked in easily today, fully retracted, with a comalong. so I don't need to get an over width permit, ha ha. Then I stupidly tried to extend down once I put the pad on, forgetting the lines were disconnected. We will figure which ones go where and hook them up Monday morning I hope to get my up/down working , and I can make my 1:00 job. Working from the curb, no reason whatsoever to swing to the street side, so safe enough, though I will need to move once or twice.

 

[JLarson]

I had one while back get jammed up from some rock that found a hole to go down from up on the deck. Have another truck at the yard that I think has a shifted pin too, thankful that truck is getting torn down.

 

[terex herder]

... Doesn’t help either that a half million in fertilizer hoppers are directly underneath us.

If thats a fertilizer house I sure hope those truss plates are stainless steel.

 

[crane operator]

If thats a fertilizer house I sure hope those truss plates are stainless steel.

I built a fertilizer storage building a year ago- it was prefab trusses and they weren't stainless plates. Framers used all regular nails also. I believe they covered the trusses after I left with plywood and used some kind of super paint on them- supposedly to keep the fertilizer from eating it up.

 

[Natman]

I don't recall, seems like they must have been? Stainless that is

I am contemplating taking the snowblade off my Kubota, and hauling it into town and using it's front end loader to pull the beam out. Problem is, this time of year the tractor keeps me plowed out and I really don't want to. I think I can scare a piece of equipment up in town, a forklift or the little crane on my mechanic's truck should do it. I have a burning need (the mystery is killing me, forget the business aspects of being down) to pull that thing clear out, eyeball everything real good, and absolutely confirm all is well before the repaired cylinder goes back in. Spotlights on both ends showed no obstructions, and a 4' straightedge narrow enough to fit the bottom gap with the beam up tight against the top, showed nothing either. I couldn't get my little camera in there, not quite enough room.

 

[crane operator]

On the truck cranes I'll just pull them out onto a stack of blocks, but they are only a foot or two off the ground. Given your carpentry skills:

Make a frame/ table out of 4x4"s and some 2x8's and pull it out, onto the frame, with your pickup. 4x4's up and 2x8 for table top and 2x4 bracing. Make it plenty stout, and make it wider than the box with the tops of the vertical 4x4's sticking up past so the box can't fall off. You can just use your comealong off your pickup bumper if you want to come out slow the last 1". Basically pull the box all the way out except the last 2", build the rack, and then pull it out the last bit onto the rack. If you find a forklift- just do the same thing only pulling the box onto the forklift teeth.

After you pull the box out of the crane- drive the crane ahead so you can see down the box (leaving it on the table). After inspection- Back the crane up to reline it up with the beam (use your outriggers if you need some up or down), and comealong or shove it back in with your pickup.

 

[JLarson]

A pile of pallets or a forklift and a pallet and a truck works. Nice thing with pallets if you have a real stuck one and give it a lil skinny peddle and it comes flying out the pallets cushion the fall, science.

It's a lot easier to put them back in with a forklift and or service truck.