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Why don’t Americans GET high reach excavators…?

Joined
Aug 15, 2009
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9
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UK
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Journalist
Unfortunately, here in the UK (and in most European countries) the accident statistics for demolition and construction are combined to it is difficult to compile firm figures.
What I can tell you is that members of the UK's National Federation of Demolition Contractors (who are responsible for around 90% of all the UK's demolition work) have seen a steady decline in serious accidents and fatalities that has been almost continuous for the past 10-15 years.
Interestingly, however, the growth in recycling and sustainability has been mirrored by a growth in minor (but resportable) accidents. But that is a new article in itself!
 

thodob

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Aug 10, 2009
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77
Location
Norway
Interestingly, however, the growth in recycling and sustainability has been mirrored by a growth in minor (but resportable) accidents. But that is a new article in itself!

and so has the profit... (before the financial crisis tho)
 

John C.

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I can't provide statistics but anecdotally I can say from the news reports I see in my area we have far more accidents in construction than in demolition.

After rereading all the posts in this thread it occurs to me that we are trying to compare apples to oranges. Europe and the British Isles have history going back a couple of thousand years. The US goes back maybe three hundred. The land is different, the people are different and many if not most of the construction methods are different.

The initial impression I got from the question was that somehow the writer thinks or puts forth that the demolition methods employed in Europe were better than used here. Increased use of high reach machines and greater percentage of salvage and recycling were seen as a better way of accomplishing that type of work and a back hand slap at how we do things here. What I didn't see were numbers making actual comparisons of the cost of demolition. Is it possible that government mandates proscribe those methods? Already mentioned was safety records. Reviewing photos of extremely long reach machines reminds me of crane disasters. Just how are those long reach machines rated when it comes to loading. Can they let go of a bite on a building fast enough to prevent a rollover?

The method of construction or demolition is an engineering function. All the inherent characteristics of the project have to be considered and costs calculated. All the methods considered for all the variables and the most cost effective one chosen for the desired outcome of the project. In other words what works on the continent is not necessarily going to work in the states to the same degree. What works in the states also may not work in other parts of the world.

Apples and Oranges
 

thodob

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Aug 10, 2009
Messages
77
Location
Norway
death of the high rise

as previous mentioned, the skills of the operator is important. This video is one the worst I've seen, cause this show total lack of understanding on how weaking of structures work... But you cant blame the UHD for the accident.

the best reason for UHD being more safe is that, the method enable the machine being longer away from the demo object, as the picture below shows, and thus falling debris is no problem.
1197468464000_riving2_1584107510x510r.jpg
 
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digger242j

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Southwestern PA
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Self employed excavator
This video is one the worst I've seen, cause this show total lack of understanding on how weaking of structures work... But you cant blame the UHD for the accident.

That's simply an example of a "not quite high enough reach" demolition machine. You could get the same results trying to bring down a 4 story building with a regular excavator. The machine has to be capable of doing the job...
 

Turbo21835

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Road Dog
HRDs are not the rule around here, but they are not uncommon. But there are also other ways to wreck a building.

The last photo shows the result of an HRD machine not having the tool carrying capability for heavy steel structures. The cat 385UHD carries a tool that is also carried by a cat 320. That shows you capability in cutting steel. The 385 operator was chewing away at the column trying to cut it. The column and truss collapsed, pinching the shear, and damaging it. So with help with a torch man, and 375 with a third member shear, this section was removed. The following post will show how the rest of the structure was dealt with
 

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Turbo21835

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The remaining portion of this structure was dealt with in an old school way. Since the HRD did not have the ability to cut the heavy steel, it was used to remove any remaining sheet metal, and loose items. Then, a 375 with 3rd member shear removed everything that could be reached. Then the rest of the structure was set up by a torch man. Reason this was done this way was due to the structure being close to an active railroad, and high tension power lines
 

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Joined
Aug 15, 2009
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UK
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Just one quick point; can anyone tell me indicative US landfill costs, ie, the cost per tonne to dump unwanted, inert materials (excluding transport).
 

thodob

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77
Location
Norway
That's simply an example of a "not quite high enough reach" demolition machine. You could get the same results trying to bring down a 4 story building with a regular excavator. The machine has to be capable of doing the job...

yes, of course... but my point was for the first having an UHD machine not necassary include safe demo. Second the importance of having an understanding of how weaken structures behave (I ment that machine is placed in the worst position, e.g. he could have pushed or pulled the remaining part down... ).

Rural areas comment: In Norway we have at least 20 high reach machines (as I know about) and we have approximately 5 million inhabitans, compared to the US it should be like 1200 high reach machines over there;)
Still HRD is special equipement and should just be bought of demolition contractors which is working over a larger area.
 

Dirty Digger

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Jan 23, 2009
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Scotland (on missionary work in England)
I find, at least in Michigan, that HRD machines just dont cut it. Most of the demolition around here is heavy industrial. Most of these buildings are heavy steel structures. Most HRD machines are not able to carry a big enough tool to cut this heavy steel. Making them slow, and inefficent. Its quicker to cut everything loose that you can with a 3rd member shear, then pull the legs out from underneath the upper structure.

... and many thanks for the great photos of one of your jobs.

To illustrate the difference in thinking on either side of the pond, I don’t think that any Western-European demolition contractor would have attempted to deconstruct such a structure with something as small as a Cat 385. At 90-tonnes (200,000 lbs) as the base weight for the excavator it is just not man enough to carry a decent-sized tool to anywhere like the required height.

I have a sneaking suspicion that one of the reasons why high reach demolition rigs are not used that often in America is Caterpillar’s weakness at the top end of the hydraulic excavator market, with a 90-tonner being their current largest model (the old Cat 5100 series excavators make a great base for such machines). Without the mighty Caterpillar active in this sector of the market, it is to be expected that American businesses will be reluctant to go down this route.
 

Rusch

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Aug 17, 2009
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The Netherlands
About the possibility of heavy equipment not being able to be put on a HRD I must disagree. The Rusch TUHD can take up a 5Ttool to 90 meter and a 10T tool upto 76 meter. The Rusch Triple 34-25 will take a 25T tool upto 34 meter. (See picture). And I think there is more to come.
RSP
 

EarthRockHill

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136
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Detroit, MI
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Industrial Photographer
As someone that has literally documented the History of Demolition in the States for the last 15 years I have seen almost every conceivable method to take down a structure.

The High Reach Attachment is used for a variety of reasons, but first and foremost to deconstruct a structure in the safest way possible.

In 1990 while living in Italy my camera became trained on local construction sites that caught my eye. Standing in the middle of every construction site of every country I visited was a piece of machinery I had never seen before. It was a tower crane. In the US, at that time, the use of tower cranes was few and far between. Now they are everywhere.

While shooting Boston’s Big Dig from 1998-2005 there were multiple technologies used that were invented, refined as improved on that were used to help construct the $14.8 billion Central Artery Tunnel Project. These were mostly construction technologies that were not from the US. Advanced Slurry Wall technologies came from Italy and Germany. Soil Mixing, Grout Injecting and Saline Soil Freezing Methods came from Japan. Mechanically every manufacturer worldwide had one state-of-the-art piece of heavy equipment somewhere on the Big Dig. In fact, even the massive 475 foot long walking gantry for placing viaduct road segments came from Sweden and Italy.

Having traveled extensively in the UK and Europe in the last 25 years there is only one thing to say. Everything we do in the States is totally different from the way ‘you’ do things over there. Not to say that our way or your way is the right or wrong way. It’s just different.
There are so many vastly different factors to consider. For everything from the time you get up in the morning to the time you go to sleep.
Speech, language, automobile sizes and uses, truck weights and models, food on our tables, the way we school our children, our sports heroes, our life heroes, rules and regulations of towns, local and civil governments, rules on the job site, expectations, training, EVERYTHING is different.

I was asked early on, from Mark Anthony of Demolition News, to join this debate and knew it would stir up a lot of emotional responses so I decided to see how things would play out before voicing my observation.

It is unfortunate that we, as people, are drawn to the entertainment of the suffering of others. It seems the videos that get the most attention on YouTube are those that are failures, loss of human life and injuries caused by reckless behavior. It is human nature.
It is even more unfortunate that most of the ‘demolition gone wrong’ videos have originated from the USA thus lumping every demolition contractor into the ugly American category.

I once posted a video of ‘textbook’ method for pulling down a water tower from the top of a 5-story building. The comments were unbelievable. Most felt it would have been better if it were cut up piece-by-piece and systematically dismantled. Others felt that a HRD would have been better attacking it from various sides to tear it apart.

But the comment that really took the prize came from the UK, from someone I used to have a lot of respect for. He stated that the location of this demolition was obviously from the REDNECK area of the United States and that HSE in the UK would have shut–down the site.

Needless to say that comment started a whirlwind fury of back and forth comments, opinions, gossip, accusations. Much like what is going on in this thread.

We as American’s have our way of doing things, some of it is good, some of it great and some not so great. Perhaps and better way to title this topic, that obviously was meant as a jab in the kidney’s, would have been ‘How have High Reach Excavators Helped your Company?’

My answer to this question would have been.

One of my biggest clients, Testa Corp, uses a Jewell High Reach Attachment that is mounted to a Komastu 1250 PC platform with a reach of 100 feet as a base machine and 120 feet when used with the extension member and weighs in at 200 tons.
They make use of the high reach attachment when certain factors apply to safely and accurately dismantle a project. They have 1 high reach attachment that is easily transported and can be quickly assembled. Additionally, they have a single highly trained professional operator that travels with the high reach attachment wherever it is deployed.

To end my contribution to this debate I have one question for you.

A friend of mine, a Scotsman (born and raised) is visiting me here in the States this week. While he has been here many times before he asked quite a peculiar question that I found rather odd.
He wanted to know why everywhere he went he saw American flags flying. He’s seen them on cars, on trucks, flying from flagpoles in people’s yards, on the front the front of houses, everywhere.

He said that in the UK it is illegal to fly the Union Jack and he wanted to know why it isn’t illegal to fly our flag here in the states?

Just curious. Seems ridiculous that you can’t fly the flag of your own country whenever you want…
 
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special tool

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Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
878
Location
Bethel, Ct.
As someone that has literally documented the History of Demolition in the States for the last 15 years I have seen almost every conceivable method to take down a structure.

The High Reach Attachment is used for a variety of reasons, but first and foremost to deconstruct a structure in the safest way possible.

In 1990 while living in Italy my camera became trained on local construction sites that caught my eye. Standing in the middle of every construction site of every country I visited was a piece of machinery I had never seen before. It was a tower crane. In the US, at that time, the use of tower cranes was few and far between. Now they are everywhere.

While shooting Boston’s Big Dig from 1998-2005 there were multiple technologies used that were invented, refined as improved on that were used to help construct the $14.8 billion Central Artery Tunnel Project. These were mostly construction technologies that were not from the US. Advanced Slurry Wall technologies came from Italy and Germany. Soil Mixing, Grout Injecting and Saline Soil Freezing Methods came from Japan. Mechanically every manufacturer worldwide had one state-of-the-art piece of heavy equipment somewhere on the Big Dig. In fact, even the massive 475 foot long walking gantry for placing viaduct road segments came from Sweden and Italy.

Having traveled extensively in the UK and Europe in the last 25 years there is only one thing to say. Everything we do in the States is totally different from the way ‘you’ do things over there. Not to say that our way or your way is the right or wrong way. It’s just different.
There are so many vastly different factors to consider. For everything from the time you get up in the morning to the time you go to sleep.
Speech, language, automobile sizes and uses, truck weights and models, food on our tables, the way we school our children, our sports heroes, our life heroes, rules and regulations of towns, local and civil governments, rules on the job site, expectations, training, EVERYTHING is different.

I was asked early on, from Mark Anthony of Demolition News, to join this debate and knew it would stir up a lot of emotional responses so I decided to see how things would play out before voicing my observation.

It is unfortunate that we, as people, are drawn to the entertainment of the suffering of others. It seems the videos that get the most attention on YouTube are those that are failures, loss of human life and injuries caused by reckless behavior. It is human nature.
It is even more unfortunate that most of the ‘demolition gone wrong’ videos have originated from the USA thus lumping every demolition contractor into the ugly American category.

I once posted a video of ‘textbook’ method for pulling down a water tower from the top of a 5-story building. The comments were unbelievable. Most felt it would have been better if it were cut up piece-by-piece and systematically dismantled. Others felt that a HRD would have been better attacking it from various sides to tear it apart.

But the comment that really took the prize came from the UK, from someone I used to have a lot of respect for. He stated that the location of this demolition was obviously from the REDNECK area of the United States and that HSE in the UK would have shut–down the site.

Needless to say that comment started a whirlwind fury of back and forth comments, opinions, gossip, accusations. Much like what is going on in this thread.

We as American’s have our way of doing things, some of it is good, some of it great and some not so great. Perhaps and better way to title this topic, that obviously was meant as a jab in the kidney’s, would have been ‘How have High Reach Excavators Helped your Company?’

My answer to this question would have been.

One of my biggest clients, Testa Corp, uses a Jewell High Reach Attachment that is mounted to a Komastu 1250 PC platform with a reach of 100 feet as a base machine and 120 feet when used with the extension member and weighs in at 200 tons.
They make use of the high reach attachment when certain factors apply to safely and accurately dismantle a project. They have 1 high reach attachment that is easily transported and can be quickly assembled. Additionally, they have a single highly trained professional operator that travels with the high reach attachment wherever it is deployed.

To end my contribution to this debate I have one question for you.

A friend of mine, a Scotsman (born and raised) is visiting me here in the States this week. While he has been here many times before he asked quite a peculiar question that I found rather odd.
He wanted to know why everywhere he went he saw American flags flying. He’s seen them on cars, on trucks, flying from flagpoles in people’s yards, on the front the front of houses, everywhere.

He said that in the UK it is illegal to fly the Union Jack and he wanted to know why it isn’t illegal to fly our flag here in the states?

Just curious. Seems ridiculous that you can’t fly the flag of your own country whenever you want…


Wow! - I did not know that.
Is this true?
I wonder if you are allowed to fly the French flag in England then??:D






Just kidding, don't get your knickers in a twist.:tong
 

JDOFMEMI

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Jan 3, 2007
Messages
3,074
Location
SoCal
I will put my 2 cents worth in as well.

I think it has a lot to do with population density where the work is happening. We here in the US have what Europe does not, which is a lot of space to live and work in.

Look at the amount of space around the structure being pulled down in Turbo's post. No reason to do it any other way. For the cost of just one of the extremely specialized machines the European companies would bring to do this, the US contractor can buy the whole fleet employed on that site.
In Europe, and other congested areas, there probably would not be that much space around the structure being torn down. That brings the need to be more controlled in the process. It also will take longer with one large machine than the fleet of smaller ones working together.
Most demo here has room to work, and the buildings being razed are typically not as tall. If they are, BOOM, and down they come.
If there was more work that required HRD machines, there would be more in use, but the standard size machines serve us well, and they are easy to deploy to the numerous smaller projects.

I am not saying one way is better or worse, just that there are many factors in why we use the machines we do, just like there are many reasons for more HRD machines in Europe.
We have our share of less qualified people causing accidents, but I am sure it happens elsewhere as well.
I do not know what it takes in Europe to be a demolition contractor. Here in the US, like any other business, it is not that hard to get into. Because it is easy to become a contractor, and some owners will always go for the cheapest price instead of the most qualified company, there will always be less qualified companies getting started. Some will succeed, as this is the American way, and some will fail. On the way there, some will have accidents that make the rest look bad.

Maybe another good question is what it takes to be in the business in other countries?
 

EarthRockHill

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136
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Detroit, MI
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Industrial Photographer
I will put my 2 cents worth in as well.

I think it has a lot to do with population density where the work is happening. We here in the US have what Europe does not, which is a lot of space to live and work in.

In Europe, and other congested areas, there probably would not be that much space around the structure being torn down.

I had to laugh out loud...How is it you view the countries in the UK and Europe? As densely packed cities with no green earth?
When ever I travel to the UK people always ask me where I am staying in London. I say, London? I have never been to London. There is so much more to the UK and Europe than the few major cities. What I see when I go there is hundreds of square miles of rolling fields, mountain ranges, dense forests, incredible seaside cliffs and wide open spaces, everywhere. Demolition sites and construction sites are no different from here. It's just the little differences that make them 'foreign' to us.
 

JDOFMEMI

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I did not mean it that way. I know they also have open country. I was referring to the cities, and it has been my impression that they are built up more dense than here.

It is also my impression of narrower streets and tight access in many cities because they have been built up already hundreds of years before roads had to be wide enough for cars and trucks.
I know the whole area is not that developed, but it would seem to me those areas that are would drive the use of machines capable of working in them.

I have never been there, and do not want to sound like a know it all. Sorry if it came out that way.

That is one reason I like it here on the forum is to learn about the ways things are done in other parts of the world.
 

EarthRockHill

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Detroit, MI
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I did not mean it that way. I know they also have open country. I was referring to the cities, and it has been my impression that they are built up more dense than here.

It is also my impression of narrower streets and tight access in many cities because they have been built up already hundreds of years before roads had to be wide enough for cars and trucks.
I know the whole area is not that developed, but it would seem to me those areas that are would drive the use of machines capable of working in them.

I have never been there, and do not want to sound like a know it all. Sorry if it came out that way.

That is one reason I like it here on the forum is to learn about the ways things are done in other parts of the world.

OK. I understand.

You are right about there being narrower streets and such in localized towns, designed years ago for horse and carriage and not cars.
What is quite amazing to me is their huge semi trucks with multiple steering axles to get around those tight corners. However, most truck and trailer combos are MUCH taller than what we are used to and their super highways (motorways) are built much better than our interstates. Thus, their payload are greater too, surprisingly. I have seen fully dressed excavators and loaders on 8-10 axle lowboys where all axles steer. Blows my mind everytime I see it...
The internet is a great place to learn about the rest of the world, but the only real way to see it is to go there....
 

digger242j

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I think it was our member Geert-yke, from the Netherlands, who has posted a lot or really good pics of high reach machines, that pointed out that explosive demolition is totally prohibited in his country, and perhaps elsewhere in Europe. I know here in the states, we implode buildings even in some pretty tight quarters. I'm sure the same could be done over there, if it were legal. With implosions not being an option, it only makes sense that the high reach machines would find wider penetration into the market than here.
 
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