Who builds the best Skid Steer and Why

[clintm]

Why is hand and foot controls a superior way to control a skid steer?

:iagree

 

[dave esterns]

this is a demonstration of why bobcat controls are a superior way to control your machine. i would love to see someone do this with a t bar or joystick. the good part starts at 5:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doNmniQrhBU

 

[Desertwheeler]

To me you have better fine control with the bobcat controls. But I have not had any issues with the pilot controls on my 226.

 

[JNB]

this is a demonstration of why bobcat controls are a superior way to control your machine. i would love to see someone do this with a t bar or joystick. the good part starts at 5:00

Wow dave, thanks for that super awesome link! I can think of so many times those super awesome skills would make me huge super awesome piles of cash on the job and impress my customers to boot. Unbelievable super awesome control!

 

[KSSS]

LOL! Certainly this is all up for debate, however I will say that typically people have better fine motor skill with their hands than their feet. Obviously it comes down operator preference, so to say that hand and foot operation is a superior method of operating a skid steer is rather silly. Perhaps for you this is true, but you certainly are not everyone. A circus act showing some monkey in a Bobcat running around on two wheels hardly makes your case.

 

[Tags]

opcorn

 

[Desertwheeler]

Haha that's funny!

 

[durallymax]

this is a demonstration of why bobcat controls are a superior way to control your machine. i would love to see someone do this with a t bar or joystick. the good part starts at 5:00

Ya, and then there's this guy.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALLFzw9hV7M


I could care less what a fruit loop in a pink bobcat can do, for stunts maybe they are better but for running all day long I like joysticks, and I used to be die hard Hand/Foot.

 

[KSSS]

Yea I think if they were truly better more people would run them or even more so, people would still be running them (since the vast majority of hand/foot operators have converted). Consider this Dave, if you were going in for brain surgery and the surgeon said he was going to operate on your brain with his feet because he felt it was more precise than using his hands, would you believe him?

I know that is a silly example, I am simply trying to make a point.

 

[dave esterns]

This is outrageous. The video was to demonstrate the capability of the system. That capability is directly related to every day use. The local dealer has 60 new bobcats on the lot and every one of them is hand foot. I never said hand foot was superior to actually live with, but mechanical controls are superior for controlling your machine that is not really debatable. Mechanical hand controls would prolly be just as good for control.

 

[KSSS]

I think your moving the goals posts (as I watch Sunday Night Football) Dave, so is it the mechanical controls you find so awesome or the hand/foot control pattern? You call them Bobcat controls and reference hand/foot, no where do you reference mechanical controls as the feature that makes them excel. Just so you know, Deere offers hand/foot with EH. What makes mechanical so superior, especially in a Bobcat? They are overly fatiguing due to the feedback in the controls IMHO. You could make a better case with mechanical/servo which has great feel and is less fatiguing, but you did not specify that. Personally, I think Pilots is the ideal control system, but EH continues to get better and better. Lastly I would say that there is nothing that these stunt drivers are doing that relates to normal operating practices. I would imagine if you saw one of your operators going down the alley in your barn on the two front tires, you would fire him.

 

[dave esterns]

i really can't believe that this is up for debate. everyone knows when you have a mechanical control system you have more control than you ever will with electric over hydraulic. when i say bobcat controls i mean standard bobcat controls. there have been lots of companies who have tried to imitate them, but for the most part they just don't provide the level of control you get in a bobcat mainly in the drive.

the old case servo system i actually did have a lot of respect for; i really can't believe they dropped it. of corse for whatever reason it seemed to be hard for people to drive a straight line with that system. not to mention you could not itch your nose while you were driving.

i am convinced that pilot controls would be nothing but problems in the winter time.

again, the fact that what the stunt drivers are doing would not be possible with joysticks proves that bobcat (non tbar) controls can do things the rest can't.

would i go back to hand foot controls in my primary machine? no. will i hop in the bobcat when i need to get a lot done in a short period of time/or whenever i am running the backhoe attachment? yes.

 

[Tags]

"i am convinced that pilot controls would be nothing but problems in the winter time."


Ok, that's a silly suggestion. If they were so problematic, how would explain that pretty much all excavators, dozers, backhoes, AND skid steers all run pilot controls? As far as controll, the pilots are precise as can be with limited movement thus not wearing out the operator. I would agree with you that the "fly by wire" controls did leave much to be desired at first but I believe even they are getting better.

 

[pafarmer]

I have run both style machines over my 30 years in the dirt business, and too say manual is superior to E/H is simply not true. I have the same level of control on my brand 299 and 289 CAT's as I did on my70 and 80 model Bobcats. The new e/h controls offer less operator fatigue from the manual hand foot controls in my opinion. When the newer pilot control first came out they had allot to be desired but today's machines are excellent and far superior to any manually operated hand /foot control machine period. Once you get used to running the E/H you can actually be more precise hour after hour, day after day in my humble opinion.

 

[dave esterns]

i would say the precision and control is there with the eh. but the precision and control coupled with speed is not really there. if i wanna move a half inch backward, while trying to take the rotor out of the combine, with mechanical i can do it in a split second. if i wanna move a half inch with eh it may take me a few seconds.

i scoop up lots of liquid manure against a flat wall; the eh is not the best fit for this application because you have to be quick else nothing will end up in your bucket. and i don't want to touch the wall with the bucket so as to wear the wall out. i can make it work at an acceptable level though.

so are you saying if i fire up my pilot machine in -30 F and take off instantly like i have always done with the bobcat it is going to work right? cuz I'm not going to wait around for 20 minutes for the machine to warm up. i have never let the bobcats warm up in cold weather and have never had a problem.

 

[Digdeep]

i would say the precision and control is there with the eh. but the precision and control coupled with speed is not really there. if i wanna move a half inch backward, while trying to take the rotor out of the combine, with mechanical i can do it in a split second. if i wanna move a half inch with eh it may take me a few seconds.

i scoop up lots of liquid manure against a flat wall; the eh is not the best fit for this application because you have to be quick else nothing will end up in your bucket. and i don't want to touch the wall with the bucket so as to wear the wall out. i can make it work at an acceptable level though.

so are you saying if i fire up my pilot machine in -30 F and take off instantly like i have always done with the bobcat it is going to work right? cuz I'm not going to wait around for 20 minutes for the machine to warm up. i have never let the bobcats warm up in cold weather and have never had a problem.

Dave..EH controls are not impacted whatsoever by cold temps. They are electrically connected to the servo pistons in the pump. From an engineering standpoint regarding electrons they would actually perform better in cold temps given that electrons and electronics in general work better when it's cold, hence the fans in computers, servers set up in cold rooms, iPhones not working well when hot, etc.

Also, preference for machine control type is just as subjective as what brand is best. Each person has a preference based on their experiences, personal biases, relationships, etc. Trust us, we're really, really happy you like your controls the best!

 

[durallymax]

Our mechanical machines were not happy in the cold. The EH machines are worse in cold, the pilot machines are better though. Ours usually don't sit shut down in the cold for too long. The smaller 226B3 with pilots never sits off for more than two hours and when it is shut down its in a warmish barn. The 262D with EH gets parked in shop over night when it gets really cold out. If we left it outside it only takes a of warming up to be responsive but it's just nicer on everything to keep it a bit warmer. Our other pilot machine (242B3) sits out of the wind but in a cold shed and never has issues either. Our Volvo wheel loader uses pilot controls as well and never even hesitates until it gets below 0*.

Our old NH mechanical machines would freewheel a lot in the cold and the genteel would obviously be very stiff.


I would say you can be much more precise with pilot controls than mechanical controls and I would bet you could do the same stunts as the guys were doing in the videos above. The pilot controls are very precise and responsive with decent operator feel. EH controls on the other hand are a different story. Our older C series Cat was pretty poor but the D series EH has gotten a lot better. I know KSSS has said that CNH has gotten their EH refined as well. I know Bobcats EH were pretty poor but maybe they have gotten them working better by now.

Maybe Bobcat guys just love their foot controls because even without them you still don't get a nice flat floor thanks to the center chain case.

Pilot controls are still my favorite, but the comfort of the EH sticks being mounted with the seat and being able to adjust them for different operators helps offset the minor annoyances in response from time to time.

 

[KSSS]

Our mechanical machines were not happy in the cold. The EH machines are worse in cold, the pilot machines are better though. Ours usually don't sit shut down in the cold for too long. The smaller 226B3 with pilots never sits off for more than two hours and when it is shut down its in a warmish barn. The 262D with EH gets parked in shop over night when it gets really cold out. If we left it outside it only takes a of warming up to be responsive but it's just nicer on everything to keep it a bit warmer. Our other pilot machine (242B3) sits out of the wind but in a cold shed and never has issues either. Our Volvo wheel loader uses pilot controls as well and never even hesitates until it gets below 0*.

Our old NH mechanical machines would freewheel a lot in the cold and the genteel would obviously be very stiff.


I would say you can be much more precise with pilot controls than mechanical controls and I would bet you could do the same stunts as the guys were doing in the videos above. The pilot controls are very precise and responsive with decent operator feel. EH controls on the other hand are a different story. Our older C series Cat was pretty poor but the D series EH has gotten a lot better. I know KSSS has said that CNH has gotten their EH refined as well. I know Bobcats EH were pretty poor but maybe they have gotten them working better by now.

Maybe Bobcat guys just love their foot controls because even without them you still don't get a nice flat floor thanks to the center chain case.

Pilot controls are still my favorite, but the comfort of the EH sticks being mounted with the seat and being able to adjust them for different operators helps offset the minor annoyances in response from time to time.

Yea I agree completely.

 

[dave esterns]

so after spending a few hours in the bobcat s570 kubota i have some things to say. the machine is pretty nice but it is LOUD in the cab! so loud that i am considering trading it on a doosan unit with sound package; which is not strategic. after being used to the jcb, the loudness is completely unacceptable. and its not just the loudness i have a problem with, its the frequency of the loudness; it rattles your brain. so it is 2014 and i am wearing earmuffs in my skid loader. not to mention the jcb is quieter without earmuffs than the bobcat is with earmuffs. so besides the loudness ruining the machine, there are a few good things about it. the first bad thing is the controls work too hard in high range. the headlights are fantastic. the machine performs and has the power that it should and is quick. the inside of the cab is pretty nice. it actually is kinda nice that you are 2 inches closer to the bucket. the glass on the outside of the cab is a good idea. the visibility is good. i will say that bobcats seem to ride smoother than other brands i don't know why. the mechanical seat is pretty good. ease of entry is not bad for conventional skid steer. the jcb is significantly faster in high range than the bobcat is. if it were solely up to me i would have had that like new cat 252b with 1500 hours with cab heat power quick tach for 16k; that woulda been a sweet toy.

 

[dave esterns]

http://www.cpwrconstructionsolutions.org/heavy_equipment/solution/874/quieter-skid-steer.html

i recommend hitting the see full article button.