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Which telehandler is the RIGHT one?

Discussion in 'Forklifts/Telehandlers' started by Hammer & Nails, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. icestationzebra

    icestationzebra Senior Member

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    Sky Trak 5028 is a very weak power wise with a NA cummins. The transmission is a C6 I think. You would be much happier with a 6036 or 6042.

    As far as the LULL 644, Barklee didn't mention if he meant 644B, 644D or 644E. The 644B has about 85% commonality with the 844C so it is overbuilt. Visibility to the rear is limited. The 644D is a handy little machine but it does have weak gearboxes and gets rust in the fuel tank. A side engine machine with good visibility. This is the lightest of the three mentioned with the least produced, so it will be the cheapest. The 644E has 85% common with the 944E so it is overbuilt. Another side engine, but with a high boom, so it has excellent visibility. If you find a 644K it is the same as a 644B without transaction, though it can be converted with the addition of the cylinder, rollers and a valve section.

    Gehl and Mustang are identical machines, formerly Dynalift. Very heavy built, not the best visibility. Fairly simple design except the newer 519.
    Terex/Square Shooter - I believe Terex bought the design from Hyster. Old school design, very basic.

    Rollers are old school design, before UHMW nylon was easy to get. Rollers aren't as good since they point load the boom box, need grease, and require a taller boom. Pads do wear out, but of more concern is that they should be shimmed as they wear to keep the boom tight. I know that Lull and Sky Trak have a champher on the pads as a wear indicator, when the champher is gone change the pads. Otherwise you wear wear down to the bolts and trash the boom.

    ISZ
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  2. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    Thanks I learned more in the last few posts than the last few years asking locally. So is gradall a completely obsolete machine, or does someone still have parts available for them? If the 5028 skytrak runs a c6 transmission, what does the 6036 run for a transmission, there are two sides to this issue, first is, anyone can get a c6 transmission whereas a dedicated transmission, like is in a jcb, is far higher priced and a must to get from a dealer when needed, the jcb might be better, but also much higher priced and limited availability at times, I just talked to a mechanic this week who's working on a jcb transmission, the case alone is 10k and on some models, no longer available, they're going to junk out the machine due to the high cost and age of the unit, otherwise its not in bad shape, just the parts exceeded the value of it. One owner told me he thought cat parts were high priced, jcb is about the same and nothing on them is standard stuff available anywhere else, something I'm trying to avoid.

    As for engines, my thoughts are either deere or cummins, the deere has sleeves and can be overhauled, the cummins is a sleevless engine but plentiful and parts are available locally for me, perkins isn't as common and for me harder to get parts for, I'd opt to avoid any ford engine, jcb, or some of the others. What axles do these machines run, axles they built themselves or something they used off of something else and are readily available anywhere for parts.

    I know I don't want a sliding carriage machine, we've already ruled them out, far too many moving parts and for me, little benefit of any sort that I could see for anything I'd have, I could see on certain things, they'd be worth their weight in gold, but not for my work or needs. As for going through mud, not really a concern, I'm mostly on cement, or indoors and if outside, if its muddy I'm doing other things, I couldn't get my welder close enough to the lift to work anyhow.

    ISZ, what do you mean by the terex being old school and very basic design? What makes them different, compared to the others?

    As for the price, its just a starting point, those with plenty of cash, can have instant gratification on purchases, those of us with limited cash, are by default made destined to do a lot of looking and asking questions to figure out what to buy and what not to buy and hopefully do it once, rather than trade at every whim when the next need or desire arises, something I've become used to over the years. I guess I'm trying to figure out, what's important to me, and that trade off of for a few thousand more, I could have a certain upgrade or option that would make it worth it to me, which at this point in time, I don't know yet, if that makes sense.

    Nobody has mentioned outriggers? I have also noticed, most telehandlers don't have any on them either, except the larger ones, 40 plus feet in height or over 8k, usually 9 or 10k machines, can they be added to any machine, if so, how or do they need to be installed new? To me, not ever using a machine with them on, I'd think I'd like them, for stability and eliminate the sway in even slight winds or doesn't it work like that? On the man lifts I've been using, the sway drives me nuts trying to weld and my thought was outriggers on boom machine that doesn't pivot would greatly cure that problem or am I thinking wrong or just dreaming? The question a while back about the boom with a basket, was strictly for welding, I could angle or do whatever I needed while in the basket to get into position to weld, and most of the sway would be eliminated, instead of the sway being from ground level, the base of the machine would be more stable and only up on the end by me, would things be movable, greatly reducing the sway and making my job far easier, I know this means little to 98% of the people, but was what I was thinking, maybe I'm totally wrong, thus the idea of spending few dollars, if I'm right and it would work, I'd have died and gone to heaven and then spend more money and upgrade, if not, to auction it would go and start over rethinking the whole process again. I've never seen one of those basket arms in person, and haven't seen them advertised in a while, but everyone I ask, keeps thinking I'd want to lift something off them and can't comprehend needing to move only a few inches sideways and then extend out a few inches to get into the ideal position to do a weld, then change again for the next, the person on the ground either can't hear you in the wind or background noise, or just can't seem to get me where I need to go every few minutes and this was my idea to solve that problem and still have a machine to do other things and use as a telehandler as well. Are outriggers readily available and can they put on machines that don't have them and do they stabilize the machine to eliminate most of the sway, on pivot machines, like swing manlifts or articulating lifts, the sway comes from the pivot portion of the lift, not the extension portion of the lift?
     
  3. barklee

    barklee Senior Member

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    I truly dont know if anyone makes Gradall parts anymore. I do know that many of the parts are off the shelf items when you really think about it..... I.e. engine parts, trans parts (not proprietary like JCB), hoses, many hydraulic parts, etc. If you needed say, wear pads, i dont know for sure if they inner change with a JLG machine? The booms look identical though. I personally wouldnt worry about that with the Gradall.
    On the outriggers..... Generally speaking they are only installed on a larger machine 10,000# lifts. However, some 8,000# Lulls, Gradalls, Etc have them. I have no idea the rhyme or reason to that and i dont think they do that anymore on the JLG branded machines or Cats. The older TH model cats had them on just about every machine. Several of the JCB machines also have them. My opinion is that they are a pain in the arse, although handy in a rare situation. I really wouldnt worry about having them given what you are doing with the machine, but thats up to you if thats valuable.

    The only complaint i have ever really heard on the JCB machine is the transmission is weak and extremely expensive to replace. As i understand they are JCB built along with the engines but i dont think parts are hard to get for them..... at least i wouldnt think so.

    Having worked off these machines for several years i have never really found them wobbly like a man lift. You are correct in that most of the play comes from the turret rotation of a manlift. I dont think you are really going to get away from the fact that they are a little bouncy, with or without outriggers. Maybe foam filled tires over calcium filled would be a little less bounce without the riggers?

    Sorry, i was talking about the Lull 644C models. They are very heavy duty and a good machine. I would buy a 644C with 5000 hours over a new 644E any day of the week. The new machines have a side mount engine and about half the iron of the older ones. Why they ever changed a great thing i will never know?...? It just seems to me that the 644c machines were always owned by guys who beat the tar out of them (like us!) and when they get sold they are pretty well worn out. With that said, i think any of the machines we have been talking about would more than do the job, but its condition that is king.:)

    I dont know enough about the old Terex square shooter machines to be able to tell you the differences, i will leave that to ISZ. He would know way more than me. I havent heard anything bad about them though and have run a SS1048 before. The only thing i can remember is the sight lines arent very good.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2013
  4. icestationzebra

    icestationzebra Senior Member

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    Outriggers are pretty much required on 10k machines to keep the vehicle GVW down. They are optional on some 8k machines because they get more reach for a given load, but most people don't want to deal with the cost, weight, reduced visability and the requirement to set them anytime you shoot the boom farther than 5ft. I didn't see too many 8k machines with outriggers sold while I was at Lull.

    I haven't seen a Terex up close in 10 years, but the machines of that era were fairly crude compared to the competition. As I recall some of the cylinders were tie-rod/ag style, whereas everyone else uses dedicated welded cylinders. The bad think is this puts the counterbalance valves in a remote block instead of on the cylinder. Plus the seals are probably lower quality. The operator station was like something from '75. They hadn't put much money into them since they were bought from Hyster.

    The only good thing about a 5028 is the easily sourced trans, everything else sucks. The power is so low that if you stop with the wheels up against a curb you won't be able to go over it, you need a running start.

    Nothing you probably don't already know, but JCB and CAT parts will be the most expensive.

    If you want to use a man basket on this machine be forewarned. You must use a manbasket sold by the OEM or risk a fine by OSHA. You are also required to have an operator within about 15-20ft of the controls at all times. They can work while you are up top, but they have to be in the area and can't wander off.

    ISZ
     
  5. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    Thanks for all the information, I'm not exactly sure what I'm going to do yet, but at least now, I'm more informed about what to look for. I was seriously thinking the 5028 model but now I'll pass on that machine and focus on a 6036 machine of some sort.
     
  6. 06Pete

    06Pete Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if you have something against cat or not but Michagan Cat has a TH63 listed for $14,500 6000 hrs with enclosed cab listed on machinery trader. It looks prety good and at that price I don't think you would have much trouble getting rid of it if you don't like it.
     
  7. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    I'll check it out 06pete, as for anything against cat, everyone has their own opinion about companies and dealers they deal with and the people at those dealerships, and have past history of equipment and repairs performed over the years. I don't have anything against cat, its just I prefer other brands machines and how they are designed and repair friendly better is all, but I haven't looked at any of cat's telehandlers yet or researched them as of yet, but I will, I have to compare them to other brands, its the only way I know who's are easier to fix and the main reason I asked questions here, to gain knowledge of what to look for.
     
  8. barklee

    barklee Senior Member

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    From the ease to work on the engine, a side mounted engine is the way to go. However, i have heard several people say that it takes away from the power doing this instead of the center mounted engine. I dont know which way is true regarding the power but i had a Gehl 11000 machine with the side mount engine and it was a breeze to access and do about anything you wanted to do. That TH 63 has the side mount engine so it would be pretty easy to access that part of it. Just a thought........
     
  9. icestationzebra

    icestationzebra Senior Member

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    The side mount engine gives you better visibility, especially with a high mount boom. (Lull 644E/944E for example) With the forks raised 3ft off of the ground you can see almost all the way around you. Low mount booms aren't all that good. The OEM's will say it is a good design to get sales, but in reality with the forks 2-3ft off of the ground the boom usually blocks your view to the right. The negative with side engine machines is that a large chunk of weight has now been moved forward on the chassis. To get the capacity back they need to add more counterweight than a rear engine machine. You also cheat the front wheels as close to the forks as you can, but obviously there is a limit. And no, the fuel tank can not be counted as counterweight. (but the hyd reservoir can)

    It's hard to go wrong with a 6036. If you are hard on equipment stay away from ZF axles. (ZF transmissions are very good though.) The Legacy models have a divorced trans and some had issues with the coupling on the engine, but they should have been changed out by now.

    As far as transaction increasing your maintanance bills, others can chime in but I never heard that complaint. Most people like having that extra 80" of reach. They are expecially popular with brick layers.

    ISZ
     
  10. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    Icestationzebra, I'm not sure which models have the ZF axles and ZF transmissions, could you explain some, so I could tell by looking at different machines what axles and transmissions they have. I don't think I've ever been around anything but a side mounted engine machine, such as the gehl 553 and jcb 506 machines, as far as the low boom mount machines, verses the high boom mount machines, I'd guess its the difference between the ag style verses the conventional higher reach telehandler, if this is wrong, again please explain. I have seen before a koehring 5025 with the engine in the back and the boom across the top of the cab, the cab is centered on the machine and it looks like a basic forklift engine and base, with an extendable boom instead of a forklift mast on it. My thought on this style was your basically looking up at the center bottom side of the forks, instead of a slight sideways view of the forks, which would make this very difficult to see anything on the forks per say, but I've never run one before, it was just an observation I noticed by looking at it. I was thinking a side mounted engine machine was what I was wanting, but I've never run anything else.
     
  11. Randy88

    Randy88 Senior Member

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    Here's a simple question, do most telehandlers, have the feature of leveling forks, or when the forks are on the ground, level, they stay level as they raise to full height? I've never paid attention to the one's I ran, but a question my wife just asked me, since she's going to be running it too, its a feature she wants, so I thought I'd ask here first.
     
  12. Blmreject

    Blmreject Well-Known Member

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    Most of them you have to level the whole machine not just the forks. The suspension can roll the body side to side, but it's up to the operator to do it (the control is in the Cab and can be used on the fly). Also, the suspension is fixed in what ever position you put it in. Over uneven terrain it can be slow going with an awkward load.
     
  13. barklee

    barklee Senior Member

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    Yes, im almost positive the forks self level as the boom raises and lowers. I have never seen one that didnt. I would agree with ISZ that the low boom machines do not have as good visibility. Either the boom is too low and the mast blocks your front right view or you have the boom so high to see 180 degrees that you are worried about hitting lines, trees, etc. I wouldnt personally be interested in a low boom but thats personal preference.
    As for the traversing machines, such as a lull. They inherently have more moving parts I.e rollers, pads, all the boom hoses bending back and forth, an extra hydraulic circuit and cylinders. They are notorious for destroying the rear wear pads, rollers, the whip hoses in the back of the boom. I just was saying that if you dont need the traverse feature i wouldnt focus on it. We have two Lull 1044c's and they are very well built and reliable. Again the 644C model Lull is a good machine, they are just hard to find a nice one. I would personally hold that machine in the same regard as the Skytrak.
    I guess my most important comment would be that if you think you can get away with a say 30' machine, buy a 36' machine. If you think you can get away with a 36' machine buy a 42'. You will never ever regret the extra reach. I would take the manuveribility trade off for the reach any day of the week. Also, i dont think a Skytrak 6042 has a whole lot bigger foot print than a JCB 506 or a Gehl 553. I also dont think theres a big price diffence between a 6036 to a 6042 or a JCB 506 to a JCB 506HL (high lift 42').
    I believe we have spicer axles on our lulls and clarks on the other machines. I think they are related somehow though. Never had any problems besides our guys tore the spider drives out of a lull machine from turning full speed on blacktop with a heavy load. I also think the Lulls have ZF trans and the others have clarks. Never had any issues with either besides some basic wiring problems. I know spicer has a metal tag on their axles and ZF has a stamp on their shifters and a metal tag on the trans.
     
  14. Blmreject

    Blmreject Well-Known Member

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    Yes I'm sorry, the forks will stay at what ever tilt angle you set them at. Around my area, level on a forklift refers to the chassis, side to side.
     
  15. icestationzebra

    icestationzebra Senior Member

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    A low pivot boom is not necessarily an ag machine. Traditionally all construction machines were high pivot, but that started to change in the late 90's. There is some movement towards smaller low boom machines for tight work sites and for smaller jobs like unloading trucks.

    As far as the ZF axles go, I believe there is a plat on the axle with model and s/n.

    ISZ
     
  16. brianbulldozer

    brianbulldozer Well-Known Member

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  17. muskoka guy

    muskoka guy Active Member

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    There is a switch on the left side of the dash that will take the auto neutral off when you press the brake. I seldom use it for the same reason as it make you jerky if you are on and off the brakes. I generally just switch to neutral when I am ready to scope out. Our th 460b is in an enclosed cab. Do some come with open cabs. Is that why everyone says these machines have electronic dash problem. No doubt that would be a problem with rain all over the dash. Our machine is going on 9 years old, and we have not had any electronic problems.
     
  18. Josh2

    Josh2 Member

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    Telehandler

    Check out Merlo telehandlers. http://www.manulift.ca/
     
  19. nativwolf

    nativwolf Member

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    If I understand you then the older the Lull the heavier built? The TT are oldest, are they good machines? I know they are old but are they solid, well powered? Is there are a real difference in the B & C? I've looked at a couple of 844TT and 644TT.

    Also, I guess I should be looking at SyTrak 6036s.
     
  20. icestationzebra

    icestationzebra Senior Member

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    The Highlanders have their loyal following but the 644B/844C/1044C is a better machine. The chassis are similar but the B/C use nylon pads, parts are readily available, solid driveline and simple hydraulics. JLG acquired LULL/SkyTrak in 2003 and I think they put ZF axles on them at some point, I would shy away from them. ISZ