When technology pushes the limits

[Squizzy246B]

The recent excellent discussion on the M series joysticks and the like got me thinking that we could probably have a wider discussion about how new technology is introduced and how we the owners/operators/drivers etc deal with it.

First of I like to have a bet each way and it may take some explaining. So; I really appreciate and look forward to the modern innovations coming through in machinery, especially how much easier it is on your body. I did many thousands of hours on 200 series Cat excavators, always on rock. I always said a shift was like a 10 hour AC/DC head banging concert with dust, flies and 105 degrees to boot. Now when we got them flash new Hitachi's with "multi-tasking", Air-con and an actual real suspension seat ....we thought we were the Kings of the world. Not to mention productivity went up about 15%.

On the otherhand, I'm in the habit of heading bush to go camping with my family. When I say "bush" I mean outback proper where you can be hundreds of miles from anything sort of near mechanical help. I like the Canning Stock Route for those of you who know Down Under. Now, last trip we happened upon a very late model 4x4 vehicle of British origin that had air-bag suspension. A fantastic innovation the way that vehicle could adjust its ride height for different terrain. In this case the vehicle had adjusted itself down to the ground and stayed there making it unable to get through the sandhills.

We caught up with the owner later in a place called Wiluna. The piece of techno wizardry that controlled the suspension had died. There was nothing wrong with the air-bags...just the computer refused to pump them up.

Now when you have two young kids with you in the outback this type of thing gets you worried. But, I look at it this way. In my travels, if you busted a spring you got some fencing wire and fixed it...or you jacked the vehicle up and jammed a piece of wood in it so you could get home. The air-bag computer is no different...its just that I'm not so familiar with it. In that particular vehicle, there is probably a very simple method of bypassing the computer control...or otherwise placing the thing in a limp mode so you can at least get home. It shouldn't have been out there without some help for the unfortunate driver. People die in the outback from such breakdowns....but its generally their own lack of planning and knowledge that leads them to die when their vehicle breaks...I digress.

All in all I think the computer will prove a more reliable piece of kit than some of the mechanical components it replaces. It certainly improves performance and wear and tear on the vehicle and its passengers.

I guess my arguement with a lot of this new technology is it may not be the equipment itself...but the way in which it is introduced, serviced, supported and maintained....plus the attitudes of the operators that can cause problems.

Me.....I'm looking at plain old coil springs for my next vehicle:cool2

Now, when somebody here finds that moron who invented the pre-emptive text mode on my phone.....you have my full permission to choke the life out of him.

 

[RocksnRoses]

Good thread, Squizzy, in light of all of the discussion on automatic truck gear boxes and the "M" series graders. I love the new technology, but of course with me, most of it goes straight over the top. Without it, I would not be replying to this thread, because it would not exist, but I find it fascinating that I can sit in my office and communicate with you in Western Australia and other members in USA, Canada, Alaska, Europe, England, Ireland, South Africa and anywhere else in the world, in an instant, with pictures.
As for truck gearboxes, if suitable automatic boxes had been available, I would have had them years ago. All of our truck work is heavy, short haul, on road, off road, constantly changing gears, especially the older, lower horsepower trucks, but every time I mentioned it, my employees, they looked at me as if I'd lost my marbles. When we first got involved with Volvo trucks, all the Mack and Kenworth drivers told us they were girl's trucks. I was riding with one in his Mack one day, when we hit some potholes and we felt everyone of them, he said these Macks are tough they can handle it, I felt like saying, in a Volvo you wouldn't have felt them. While the American trucks have the grunt, the European trucks are way ahead in comfort and technology. While we can only afford secondhand trucks when we upgrade, I can't wait until we can get in to automatic gearboxes. If I had one a few years ago, it would have saved me many thousands of dollars from having an engine ripped off the bell housing, when the truck was stuck. Some people question the reliability of computors and electronics, but look how far cars have come. Once you were always cleaning plugs and points, nowadays you just drive them and they keep going.

I would love to have an "M" series grader for a few days, just to see what all the fuss is about. We have had a joy stick in our Liebherr loader nearly twenty years and it is a "joy" to use, it's just that the rest of the machine let it down. I realise that is a poor comparison to a grader, but a lot of machines are going that way, or are already there, it is just that Caterpillar took it a bit further and they are experiencing some teething problems. What they have done though, is that they have set a new benchmark for graders and now the other manufacturers will try to better it, which means in time, there are going to be some pretty high tech graders out there and I say, bring it on.

As you say, there are some areas like the Canning Stock Route and other remote areas, where perhaps you are better off to rely on the tried and proven technology, until the newer computerised version has been fully tested, but then if the situation does arise where you become stranded, I would be using another piece of modern technology to summon help, the satellite phone. Just a few of my thoughts.

Rn'R.

 

[Squizzy246B]

until the newer computerised version has been fully tested, but then if the situation does arise where you become stranded, I would be using another piece of modern technology to summon help, the satellite phone. Just a few of my thoughts.

Rn'R.

You are right of course......Just so long as that Sat phone doesn't have pre-emptive text

Around about 10 years ago I was mainly involved with marine diesel engine failure analysis. The horsepower being produced at that time was nothing short of phenomenal. At that time the Volve 16 litre (163P) was wound up to 750 Hp. The Cat 3412 (E Cat) was up to 1100 Hp, the 8RG version of the 3408 (known as a hand grenade here) was into 800 hp. The MAN D2842 was at 1000hp and the Scania DSI14 was producing 800hp. Of course computers where the only way they got to those extremes.....and, quite a lot of those engines had problems. It seemed whenever we uncovered the cause of a catastrophic failure (very often the cooling system) people blamed that inherent fault. Nobody seemed to think much about how these things where producing twice the horsepower the original versions came out with, or the stress involved in doing that.

In the case of the 8RG 3408 Cat hand grenades....of the 30 that came into the state...27 of them pulled the pin.....thus the name.

 

[OCR]

When technology pushes the limits:

Good thread, Squizzy

I agree, Rn'R.

Just a few of my thoughts.

And they're good ones too, Rn'R.

I remember some of the comments about power steering years ago... no good, wouldn't have it, can't feel the road... LOL

I can "feel" the road just fine, without the steering wheel spokes breaking my thumbs!!...


OCR...

 

[Squizzy246B]

I'm reminded of an old Bedford truck I used to drive as a kid.....you kept your palm open on top of the gearstick otherwise that old girl would break your thumb when she kicked out gear.

 

[digger242j]

Some people question the reliability of computors and electronics, but look how far cars have come. Once you were always cleaning plugs and points, nowadays you just drive them and they keep going.

RnR, you've just mentioned something I use as an example every time I complain about today's vehicles. Back in those days, your vehicle could run like crap for six months, but it would get you home every time. Today, you're subject to them just quitting, sometimes at highway cruise speeds.

There's a concept I stumbled across one time, reading an article about jet frighter aircraft--it said that they liked them to be able to experience "graceful degradation of combat damaged systems". The key word there is "graceful". Things shouldn't quit working with no warning at all, even when somebody has shot them full of holes.

That's my main complaint about electronic/computerized components. There's usually nothing graceful about their failure. One minute they're there, the next minute they're not. If they're not going to have some sort of redundancy, alternative, or backup, they need to be bulletproof and then some.

(And by the way, I participate here at HEF using a special interface contraption connected to the internet. At my end, I'm both reading and responding via smoke signals. )

 

[MKTEF]

I have to say that the future you are talking about is here already.
Take a trip to your nearest MAN dealer and ask for a tecnological trip on a TGA or a TGX.
We bought a couple of TGA's a year ago, 8x4 concrete mixers.
With them came a tecnichians course, and a course on MAN's mancat system.:yup
I didn't belive what i was told!
The TGA is filled with computers and networks talking to each other.
I don't remember the exact number but it is around 10-12 computers running in that truck.
The engine ecm talks to the gearbox ecm, who speaks with the ABS ecm, who chats with the chassis ecm who has som speaking with the door ecm who talks to the right door ecm.. ..
All this connected together with canbus networks.

Right front brake valve is located inside the wheel and is controlled via a computer signal from the abs ECM, who receives a digital signal from the brake pedal.
There is no air/hydraulics controling that valve, its fully elctronic via canbus signals.
Of cource there is a mechanical system in the brake pedal that starts working if the elctr fails.
Problem is the engine demands so much electronic controll it has to be a single "brain" to controll it. So the only stuff it communicates out on the network is rpm, temp, oilpressure, start, stopp and so on. All the other stuff runs inside the engine ecm network.
Of course this then is info that the gearbox ecm wants, to do its job.

Thats why they have so many ecm's, there is a limited amount of data that can be sent trough the canbus, so there are many smal local canbus systems running. Minor info is then sent out of one network to the others.

Realy funny, u plug the mancat into the canbus.
Ask your asistant to check out the wipers, and then turn on the wipernoozles and squirt him wet.
Computer lets u controll anything on the vehicle!
It even has a cableless modem that u put in the vehicle contact, u can sit in your foreman office test everything...But not put in gear....
Just ask the abs ecm to put the right front brake on, valve reacts, and u can read the pressure on the testpoint.

MAN is the most advanced we have bought recently, the Volvo grader is "stoneage" with only 3 ECM's talking to each other......

Yeah and the electrical system is realy easy.
4 cables going all over, 1 plus canbus, 1 minus canbus, +24V, minus and thats it.
At the front right lamps there is a networkcard translating the canbus signals, giving a signal to a relay for the blinker. Canbus signal says, right blinker on, right blinker off.
Relay goes in and out, voila.
At the same networkcard there are relays for right headlamp, extra lights, parking light and other stuff close.
No huge spagetti going all the way from the fuses down all over the vehicle.

Now you understand why there is a door ecm and a network connecting them...
All mirrors can be adjusted electronical, mirrorheater, window up/down, doorlock++, only 4 cables from the left door to the right.

And on edit; the gearbox is automated, yes, but its a gearbox with no syncro gears...
And it aint double clutching...
Gearchange is realy funny, like in racecar. No way u can do shifting like this bugger is.

 

[JDOFMEMI]

The MAN sounds like quite the truck.

I remember when we would do a minor overhaul on an engine (pickup) every 50,000 miles. Now it is not uncommon to go 250,000 without more than a couple of tune ups, and oil changes. Old engines needed oil changed at 2,000 miles, and if not, you had problems. My last truck went to 200,000 and still running fine with oil changed at 10,000 miles.
Plug into computer port and know what part to replace to fix the problem is a good thing, unless you are hundreds of miles from anywhere when it breaks.

Satelite tracking and monitering is another thing. Had rented some haul trucks. One day I get a call from the service manager of the rental company. He says " I need you to park truck number (forget the number) because it has an engine problem. By the way, our mechanic is on the way with the required parts to fix it, and you will be up and running again in a couple of hours."
There was not yet any indication of a problem, but we complied, and the problem was fixed while it was small, and saved a major repair later. I forget the specific repair, but this kind of proactive repair is the way to go.

Just make sure it is field tested before it comes out to the public.

 

[Haul-Pak]

Good to see some Opinion's and not just Quote's from PDF file's Burried in HardDrive's

We havent even started to push the limmit's of heavy equipment with electronic control.

Only the M grader has really taken the idea on board and went fully Fly-By-Wire. I've heard talk of Fiber-Optic's being used in up and comming equipment .. Iam unsure if this is a good idea or not?? Fiber Optic's have no resistance, Unless the cable (Whatever Fiber optic wire is called ) is miles in lengh the signal does'nt weaken, The ECM wouldnt have to deal with resistance in signal's but if the cable break's you need a specialist to do the repair.

Best example of how Technology has Improved equipment: O&K PMS. This prevent's the machine from digging it's own grave, Limmit's the digging and loading to the spec parameter's of the machine, The older machine's Had Performance valve's (Load limmit) but they had to be set higher or the machine would not perform. The Performace valve's are set at a certian pressure (Bar) with a certian RPM from the engine. Most of the time you would have to set a pressure at full rpm as the tacho's did nt work Ha ha Ha so not really a scientific set up. No such worrie's now. Just make sure the Pump pressure's are correct. Taken straight off the pump.

The control's are all electronic on the later PMS, This is the first time I had heard of Digital signal's, (8 comand's going down 4 wire's) Techincally you could switch the control's around so the operator could use the stick's to travel when needed.

Ghost movment's where a problem, This could be a BIG problem considering to forces involved with Hevay equipment.

 

[Yosemite]

Nice thread...

It reminded me of a chat i had with my former employer. The first time he bought a wheel loader with joystick steering was in 1991, was a Volvo with an early implementation of the CDC system, now he won't order a loader without it.

When questioned about it, he said, "Who would buy or run an excavator with 4 sticks instead of 2 joysticks today? Who'd buy or run a dozer with a cable lift instead of hyrdaulic today?"

I much rather prefer a joystick than turning a weel 14 hrs a day

 

[RocksnRoses]

You are right of course......Just so long as that Sat phone doesn't have pre-emptive text

Around about 10 years ago I was mainly involved with marine diesel engine failure analysis.

This is where I come unstuck with technology, I can't even text, or maybe can't be bothered, I find it easier to just talk to people.

Did any one engine out perform the others, or did they all develop similar problems, Squizzy?

I remember some of the comments about power steering years ago... no good, wouldn't have it, can't feel the road... LOL

I can "feel" the road just fine, without the steering wheel spokes breaking my thumbs!!... OCR...

Funny, they said the same thing here, OCR.

RnR, you've just mentioned something I use as an example every time I complain about today's vehicles. Back in those days, your vehicle could run like crap for six months, but it would get you home every time. Today, you're subject to them just quitting, sometimes at highway cruise speeds.)

What you say is quite right, digger, when they stop, they stop, but I have to say that the vehicles that we run, both petrol and diesel, just never let us down and they are all around the 200,000km mark. It does bring to mind though, quite a few years ago, they brought out a thing called a torque starter battery and these batteries worked really, but then for no reason at all and with no warning, they would go completely dead. We were heading to work one morning with our ute ( a petrol V8) loaded up with gear for the crusher, pulling a fuel trailer and just as we were crossing the main Adelaide/Perth railway line, this thing went dead and here we are, sitting bang in the middle of the railway line. We both looked at each other and then we flew out of there and started pushing like crazy. Fortunately the trains didn't run that often.

Rn'R.

 

[Squizzy246B]

Did any one engine out perform the others, or did they all develop similar problems, Squizzy?

Rn'R.

No one manufacturer stood out. They had their problems. The Cats burnt valves, the MAN's couldn't handle the slightest cooling problem, Volvo had corrosion problems. We used to see a lot of 92 deries detroits which went well but they just couldn't do the hours and needed more maintenance. Probably the least failed engine we saw was the old Scania DSI11 and the Cummins KTA19...mainly becuse these engines weren't and couldn't be juiced too much to join the horsepower race.

I remember one of the German engineers from MAN (No sense of humour these guys) say that the West Coast cray boats were the most difficult duty cycle they had had to design an engine for. Around that time MAN changed the injector swap interval down to 1500 hours from 3000. It was clear to me that the computer was a few yers in front of the old mechanical injectors.

I still have my old toolbox with a Cat 3412 piston indentation in the side of it. The rule here is never leave your toolbox in the dyno room when somebody is winding a 3412 up to 1100 Hp. Things go wrong when one part of the technology gets ahead of the rest...or the operator for that matter.

I think it might have been my Dad saying once that seatbelts where the most dangerous invention he'd ever seen in a vehicle.

 

[John C.]

It was quite a few years ago that Timberjack came out with the 1270 timber harvester. All the controls in the cab were computer controlled. I didn't have to work on them much but our hot shot at the time said he only had to work on the mechanical systems. Busted transmissions, axles, booms, grapples and engines. The electronics apparently gave very few problems unless someone ripped them out on the brush.

The CAN Buss system is what we call a multiplex system over here. International has it on their trucks. You basically specify what systems you want on the truck when you purchase it. The manufacturer or the dealer installs the controller units and you just plug your stuff in when you get it. I hear it works well but I have been a long way from trucks for years.

 

[liebherr1160]

theres talk of lattice crane boom ..made of carbon fiber or light wall steel tube charged with Nitrogen to give it the same rigidity and capacity as a schedule 120 pipe for comparision ...this well get us higher in the air with a reasonable capacity..in next to nothing