What would be faster?

[westerveld]

This past week we were excavating a pond, and we had stripped out the topsoil/sand and pushed it out to the side of site, later we realized that this pile had to be pushed back an extra 60-80 feet to be out of the way of pond. So my boss told me to push it back with a dozer, so I spent a whole day doing just that. But my question is, what would be quicker, pushing it back with a case 1150 dozer, or bailing it back with a kobelco sk200 mark 8 excavator? I'm not that experienced on a dozer, but it seemed to me that I could have thrown that pile back faster with the kobelco. Just wondering what you actual dozer operators thought? (the pile is about 15 feet high/20-30 feet long) And what if the pile was clay?

 

[vapor300]

I personally think it would be faster with a dozer, find a way to work yourself up on top of the pile and start slot pushing just like you would a big dozer

 

[Scrub Puller]

Yair . . . westerveld. I think vapor300 is right . . . no question.

He nailed it in one though. You have to do it right. Lots of dozer hands would do that job by shagging around side cutting.

You need to get up on top and get some gravity assist working in a slot.

Cheers

 

[sheepfoot]

It would depend on the bucket size of the trackhoe, it has a reach of about 32' from it's center so you would have to handle it twice to get the distance for your new pile. The dozer depending on the blade size could carry it once a slot was started keeping the dirt at the blade and make short work of it on a 80' push. I would use the dozer because thats what the boss said, he could have wanted to give you some seat time also.

 

[vapor300]

yeah i dont know how many times ive watched guys try do this and work from the side

 

[OzDozer]

It would have been a whole faster to have done some better planning up front, and avoided double-handling the dirt. Or did the plans change right after the topsoil/sand was stripped and placed?
I don't know how many times I've seen this double-handling happen. I've seen a minesite where they built the waste stockpile, got it to about 10M tonnes in size - then the management decided it was it was in the wrong place, because there was another heap of gold-bearing ore right underneath the waste pile. They set to and shifted the whole lot again. Later on the company went broke. I wonder why?

 

[Greg]

Would have done some pre-planning here and more then likely would have hooked up pan behind Cat and moved it that way.

 

[vapor300]

??? really move a scraper in for a hald of days worth of work??? and it still would of took a lil bit of dozer work to get the pile where a pan could get on it, plus only having 20ft to get loaded in lose material is a job itself. A dozer pushing i think would be your best option, unless you had a scraper on site.

Moving stock piles sucks but it happens so much, i dont know how many times ive seen it done and alot of it is because they want to get a job started before having a GPS model. We had a waste site to get rid of 600,000 yards of access material that had 2 retention ponds and a stockpile of topsoil that was around 50,000 yards. Well GPS model ended up being wrong and everything was off 100ft, hald the topsoil pile had to be moved, and 1 of the retention ponds was wrong, half of it had to be filled in which was no big deal since we were still hauling to that site, but the other half had to be cut out. Took 4 27's 3 days to cut out the pond and cut the slope back, a 30 ft 3:1 thats 200 feet long and 60 ft to far out produces alot of dirt.

 

[westerveld]

thanks for the input guys, and yes it cost a day's work not moving the topsoil back far enough the first time, but that had mostly with to do with the customer changing his mind on the size of the pond. As far as pulling a pan with a dozer goes, would that be quicker than a articulating truck and ex?Or does that just depend on distance?

 

[vapor300]

ex and truck would probably be faster but scraper is ALOT cheaper

 

[Acivil]

Design changes aside... if the pile was 15X15X30 it would be 250 yd3... it shouldn't take a day to move that yardage 60-80 feet with a bobcat?! Also, if the dirt would have ultimately been moved to the same spot, did it really cost any more to move it half of the distance, then move it the rest of the distance? There may have been a bit of time lost in the stockpiling/pushing off of a stockpile portion of the scenario, but if the dirt had to travel that path either way, it seems to me that it would cost the same. If the pile was moved from one side of the site to the other it would be different, but it seems to me it would have taken a similar amount of work with a given dozer regardless if they pushed it 1/3 then 2/3 of the distance or 1/2 then 1/2 of the distance, or 7/8 then 1/8 of the distance as long as the push was relatively strait?

 

[lumberjack]

I was thinking the same thing, that it was apparently a lot of time to move not much dirt.

 

[OzDozer]

As far as pulling a pan with a dozer goes, would that be quicker than a articulating truck and ex? Or does that just depend on distance?

The general rule of thumb is that a dozer is the most efficient method, when dirt has to be moved from 1' to 300'. A crawler tractor and towed pan works most efficiently at 300' to 1000' haul - and motor scrapers and artic truck/excavator combos perform more efficient dirt-shifting, at distances of 1000' and more.

 

[Greg]

I would have cut it with a pan from the start and made sure I got it far enough out the first time.

Had that happen to me one time where I had to move material second time. After that made sure I got it far enough out after that. No money in moving it more times than is needed

 

[Tinkerer]

thanks for the input guys, and yes it cost a day's work not moving the topsoil back far enough the first time, but that had mostly to do with the customer changing his mind on the size of the pond. As far as pulling a pan with a dozer goes, would that be quicker than a articulating truck and ex?Or does that just depend on distance?

The customer changed his mind on the size of the pond, which caused the pile to be moved. I would have presented him with the various methods to move the pile and their associated costs. Then a change order would be written up for how he wanted it done, including the cost. Unless the contractor is doing it as a goodwill gesture (I have seen it done). If that is the situation then costs and efficiency get top priority.

 

[Greg]

Customer changing his mind puts a whole new spin on it. That becomes a legitimate extra.

To me it all comes down to cost. I am sure I can run Cat pulling pan for less cost then excavator and articulating truck. Plus don't have articulated trucks here so would have to go out and rent. No money in using rented equipment

 

[580bruce]

I always like the posts from OZ!

 

[lumberjack]

Isn't it up to the contractor to decide the most efficient way to move dirt? I can't see why the customer would care how the pile was moved 80'.