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What causes High Oil Pressure in 580B CK?

Discussion in 'Tractor/Loader/Backhoes' started by 1968 Case 580CK, Apr 24, 2015.

  1. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    Hello. I have been doing alot of maintenance/restoration on my old 1968 580B CK. Today I noticed that the oil pressure is reading way up near the maximum reading of 80psi. She cranks up great, sounds fine, but the oil pressure goes way up and stays just below 80, even after warming up. Only way to get it to drop down is to kill the engine.
    https://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/images/smilies/eek.gif
    What is the normal oil pressure reading on these 4 cylinder diesel engines? Is this possibly a sign that the oil pump is getting clogged or something else?

    All advice is welcomed.

    Here is a pic of the oil pressure gauge with the engine off.....gauge reading is 0 to 80 psi.

    April 2015 Case Repairs 060.jpg
     
  2. D Grade

    D Grade Well-Known Member

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    I don't know much about engines that old, but I would venture to say possibly clogged oil galleries from years of oil coking. Maybe a clogged oil pick-up or improper oil filter. Could be as simple as a bad oil pressure sensor as well. One thing we did in the automotive industry to lower oil pressure on sports cars with stroker kits was to port the oil filter housing. Do those engines have a HEUI pump style setup? That could be an issue as well but that might be later technology and not applicable on that old of a Case.

    These aren't educated guesses on that particular engine, so I would recommend advise from folks who have worked on those classic Case engines as well.
     
  3. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    Thanks D Grade for your input. I just changed the oil today and it was after the oil/filter change that I noticed the high pressure reading (I honestly do not know what it was reading before the oil change....daaaaaaaa). Lets assume the worse case, and there are clogged oil galleries. Does this mean that I need to quickly run some thin/soupy oil in her (maybe 50% diesel/ 50% oil) to try to break into those "clots"? Or would that Sea Foam be something to use?

    I suppose I first need to verify that that oil pressure sending gauge is good.....which means replacing it with a new one. Since the oil pan is so easy to remove, would you suggest that I remove it and see if the pick-up screen might be clogged?
     
  4. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    I'm not a Case guy, but I feel comfortable saying there is NO HEUI on a 580B.

    Do you know what oil is in there? And that the filter is correct (usually wouldn't cause this, oil pressure should come off the end of the line). The gauge could be weak, showing pressure higher than actual. Unplug it and hook up a 100 psi gauge to the same place to see.

    There's probably an oil relief/bypass valve that could stick, but they usually stick open, not closed?

    Edit: oops, beat me to it.

    What are the numbers of the old and new filter? oil weight? any junk in the bottom of the oil drain pan?
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2015
  5. D Grade

    D Grade Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, if the oil pan is easy to remove and you don't mind spending on another oil change, then I would say thats a pretty good idea. if you did start seeing high oil pressure after the oil change, I would try removing the oil filter and checking the inside to see if there was a paper or piece of packing that you might have missed before you put it on. At Caterpillar, we check the oil filters inside for packing and paper included with the filter. We have a pretty good chance of finding something in there and we've accidentally installed some filters with the paper still in there. Definitely not a good situation.

    As for the oil galleries, you can try seafoam and see if it works. If thats the problem and the seafoam isn't effective, then you're probably looking at an engine teardown to hot tank the block.
     
  6. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    Delmer.....I just changed the oil, and the filter is a real Case filter. I used 10W30.
    Good idea.....I will unplug the oil sending line to the gauge and try a new one directly into the engine. (These engines have a oil line running from the engine all the way up to the gauge).
    After testing the oil pressure with a new gauge, I think I will pull the oil pan and see how that floating oil screen/filter is doing after all these years. But, a clogged screen would just make the pump run harder, making oil pressure lower, right? My fear is that the screen is clogged and the line between the pump and screen is ruptured, allowing the pump to suck up all kinds of trash/gunk and send it up to the engine gallies.

    I will investigate and reply back with what I discover this weekend.
     
  7. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    DGrade.....good idea.....i will take the oil filter off and look inside. But wouldnt a clogged oil filter cause the oil pressure to drop way low instead of way high?
    I hope its something minor as I was not expecting some major engine work anytime soon.
     
  8. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    After you check with a different gauge, and before you pull the oil pan, find out where the oil relief valve is. Hopefully it's visible around the oil filter base area and not inside the pan/pump.
     
  9. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    Delmer, based on the shop manual, the oil pump is bolted right below the rear bearing cap, in front of the crank gear....thus inside the pan/pump. It does have a relief valve built into it.
     
  10. melben

    melben Senior Member

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    I spent my life working on those engines in all forms of industrial and ag applications and have seen that high oil pressure many times, as long as it doesn't vary up and down dramatically I wouldn't worry about it. If the plunger was sticking closed you would have enough pressure to blow the filter apart and if it were stuck open the pressure would vary all over depending on rpm. It's probably fine.

    The pump is on the FRONT main bearing cap, BEHIND the crank timing gear.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
  11. El Hombre

    El Hombre Senior Member

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    My money is it's the gauge. Probably been like that for a while, but after an oil change you're going to look at it, and notice it's high. I used to wrench and got the complaint 'It didn't do that before I brought it in' lots of time. They were unaware of the car until they got it back and actually started paying attention.

    You get pressure from volume of flow against some kind of restriction. So anything that restricts the flow will increase pressure. So it's not a clogged intake screen; that will lower the pressure, because you don't have as large a volume working against the restriction.
     
  12. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    Melben......your post is a huge injection of postive feedback, which is greatly needed at this time......now I am less worried about a total engine failure as a result of clogged oil galleries, and a huge cost at rebuilding the old engine. However, the high reading still gives me concern, and I will at least take the time to try another gauge.

    In my case, the high reading of almost 80 is the same at idle and at higher rpms. It goes back to zero when killing the engine. Lets assume that I test it with another gauge, and still get the high reading. With the thought of clogged oil galleries/lines in the upper head, would it be reasonable to first try dumping out the oil and adding a mixture of about 50% kerosene/50% oil, running her for 10 minutes to see if this might work loose the clogs, and maybe allow the high oil pressure to perhaps fall back to the 40-50 range?

    Another idea I had was to pour a gallon of kerosene directly into the valve cover via the valve cover breather tube, and let this work its way back thru the oil galleries, down the block, and back into the oil pump. Isnt it possible that this would help open up those "clogging arteries"?

    Another more simple idea was to add a quart of Sea Foam to the engine oil and see if maybe that would gradually open up the oil flow passages, and lower the oil pressure with time.

    Yesterday I commented that I could easily remove the oil pan and inspect that "floating oil pump intake screen", and see what years of neglect have done in the lower part of the engine. Today I checked again, and see that it is a huge undertaking to remove the oil pan. It looks like the front axle is a part of the oil pan, and the axle has to be removed to take the oil pan off. Do you agree that oil pan removal is too much of a job just to inspect the oil pump screen?

    Another quick thought......would it make sense to inject about a cup of engine oil into the top of the valve cover prior to running her, just to ensure some oil to the top bearings "if" there is clogging in the oil lines going to the upper areas of the engine?

    Thanks again.
    dwight
     
  13. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    You have the engine and manual, right. Check to see if the gauge comes off the end of the oil galley, that is, at the opposite end from the pump and filter. Also, what does the book say is the oil pressure relief setting, could it be... 80PSI ?

    You have your answer from Melben, a Case master, you'd be a fool to ignore it. Kerosene? yep, that'll get your oil pressure down alright!

    What did the drain oil look like? did you open up the filter? Pull the valve cover off and check if there's gunk and it's getting oil if you're still not satisfied.
     
  14. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    To follow-up on my prior comment about the oil pan being very hard to get off, here are a couple pics:

    April 2015 Case Repairs 359.jpg

    April 2015 Case Repairs 363.jpg

    Is it as hard as it looks to remove the oil pan? (Dont laugh too hard over that 8 penny nail used as a cotter pin on the steering linkage)
     
  15. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    Delmer.....Yep, I have the manual, shop manual, and parts book. The oil line going up to the oil pressure gauge comes off the opposite side of the engine as that of the oil filter and pump. Here is a pic:
    April 2015 Case Repairs 366.jpg
    I could not find an illustration of that side of the engine in the manuals, but it looks like the oil pressure gauge line comes off the long oil gallery you mentioned.
    The only thing I could find regarding the oil pressure relief setting was this......Load at 1.44 inches = 18-19lbs; Oil Pressure = 50-75 psi

    The drain oil was black as the darkest coal from the deepest mines of West Virginia. Out of curiosity, I will go cut open the oil filter now and inspect the "muk".

    OK.....sounds like a good idea to pull off the valve cover and see if the oil flows up there.

    Youre right.....Melben the Case master thinks all will be fine, and that is some huge relief. But some futher tinkering may expose other issues, and the old saying "a stitch in time saves nine"......in this case, it could save an elderly 188 diesel engine.

    (So, the idea of pouring kerosene down the valve cover hatch is a no-no???)
     
  16. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    Delmer, you persuaded me to do a most challenging task, one which a mechanic could learn to enjoy quite well........the science/art of cutting an old oil filter in half, perhaps better called "Oil Filter Autopsy". Here are the remains of the dead carcass, the poor ole Fram PH8A has seen a very hard life:

    April 2015 Case Repairs 375.jpg

    April 2015 Case Repairs 385.jpg

    April 2015 Case Repairs 386.jpg

    Now, I am no mortician or autopsy expert, but at least there was no gooey, grease-like sludge in the filter. Bascially just real thick, black, dirty oil. What is your expert advice based on this Oil Filter Autopsy?
     
  17. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    Two ways to inspect the paper for junk.

    Cut a section of pleats out that is at least two inches wide and enough pleats to make 1/2"-1", put that stack of pleats into the vice and squeeze fairly hard. Open up, stretch out the paper and look for metal particles (but not the size of the hacksaw filings, sorry, should have mentioned not to use a hacksaw) or other garbage.

    Other method, cut out a section of the filter, rinse it in a can with a half cup of gas, repeat with clean gas, let paper dry and look for garbage, pour off excess gas, rinse particles in the bottom of the can with a few more ounces of clean gas, pour off and check particles for anything unusual, in this case small flakes of non magnetic shiny metal/bearing. There WILL be some metal, paint, sand, rust, etc. Just not too much.

    A rough measurement of the oil condition is to drop a piece on some paper, new or relatively clean oil will spread out into an even oil spot. Really gunked up oil will leave a dark spot of dirt in the middle and a clean oily outer circle where the oil soaks out from the drop. That won't work on the oil that comes out of the filter, that's full of everything that fell out of the filter.
     
  18. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    Delmer.......man, you are GOOD! You tha man, as they used to say. You taught me something new about the art of "Oil Filter Autopsy". I had no clue that anyone ever took the time to do this, but apparently you and some others at this site have never left a stone unturned.

    If you dont use a sawz-all or hack saw, how do you cut open the oil filter can? Maybe use a grinder on the end to burn thru the thin metal wall, and be sure not to analyze the paper filter on the end? Box cutter?.....higher risk of having an accident, and someone doing the autopsy on me, and not the filter.

    I like the oil spot technique....interesting. Also, as a method to see if the bearings are wearing or other metallic wear/tear.

    Maybe we can carry the process one step farther......use a Gas Chromotograph to get an exact count on all the various chemicals/elements in the filter.......and who knows in my case, as we might get some DNA from Jimmy Hoffa floating around in that old oil.
     
  19. Delmer

    Delmer Senior Member

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    Well, a real oil sample test is barely $10 so there's not much point in re inventing the wheel. I don't cut open every filter, just the suspicious ones.

    There is a special tool (picture a big rolling cutting wheel tubing cutter) for cutting open filters. I use a pair of aviation snips usually, punch a hole and cut spiral out from there. Not perfect, but that's what's handy.

    Edit: I'll admit to flushing an engine with kerosene or diesel once or twice, just don't run it that way. Pour 4 gallons through the engine with the plug out and draining into a clean bucket. Repeat until there's no more dirt in the bottom of the bucket.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2015
  20. 1968 Case 580CK

    1968 Case 580CK Senior Member

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    OK, so you do have a special tool kit for performing "Oil Filter Autopsies". Who knows, someday universities may be offering degrees in this.....B.S, Engine & Oil Autopsy Engineering. Sign me up.

    Glad you gave a thumbs-up on the kerosene idea.....I may give this a try to try to flush out all the crapola. I started another thread on "how to remove the oil pan". Im interested in seeing what the best way is to access the oil pan.....i would love to get my hands on that oil pump pick-up screen, as I bet it is partially clogged.