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Volvo Demo

Discussion in 'Skid Steers' started by Cat287B, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Digdeep

    Digdeep Senior Member

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    The new CAT D series I ran has a decelerator function. The foot pedal acts as a decal pedal when the machine is at max rpm. It was actually pretty nice. Their machine also has some sort of throttle feathering system so that the throttle/rpm levels out out if your foot starts bouncing up and down on the foot pedal like in rough terrain or in a skid steer that is bouncing around.
     
  2. caterpillarmech

    caterpillarmech Senior Member

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    I have been around since Cat came into the ss market. First thing I noticed was the pedal. Makes it far easier for the beginner to make precise adjustments. I see guys every day with their bobcats running balls out all the time. First time I ran a Bobcat, I looked like a fool, just like everyone else. You can learn to operate at a set rpm but it takes time. With a pedal I think the learning curve is a lot faster and the machine is a lot more forgiving on your mistakes.
     
  3. dave esterns

    dave esterns Senior Member

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    i will comment on the foot throttle later.

    i encourage everyone to watch this whole video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzu7EdQ7zHk

    this is outrageous. i don't see why anyone wouldn't buy a volvo exclusively to avoid this chaos...
     
  4. stovein

    stovein Well-Known Member

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    Looked at the Volvo site and tier 4 engines on them use similar dpf systems except that they use diesel fuel instead of def fluid to enhance regeneration as Dodge did till 2013. The emission rules are the same for all and it seems that for now the particulate filter is the only solution in town. I can see it being a real pain if you use the machine for aux power at lower throttle settings like with a backhoe or wood splitter because of the possible filter loading up.
     
  5. durallymax

    durallymax Senior Member

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    Pretty common actually, most OEM's offer them. Wouldn't be without it personally.

    x2 looks like a safety issue and that pre cleaner is asking to get ripped off.

    "Normal" style to you, Hand/foot controls are rapidly going by the wayside. Bobcat is one of the few OEM's that pushes them anymore. Why use all of your limbs to run mechanical controls? Wears you out. I used to be diehard H/F controls.

    When running Pilot or EH controls the foot throttle is nice for adjusting your speed especially for new operators. unlike your manual sticks in your bobcat, you only need the touch of a feather to move pilot controls and being a short stick its tough for new people to get used to the range so its easier to just hold the stick forward and run the foot throttle, its really nice for lift and carry operations. We use the foot throttle almost exclusively on all of our machines.

    You couldn't catch me dead with a new CNH machine but you also wouldn't find me buying a machine without a foot throttle, I love them and they have really reduced our fuel useage as we never need the full power of our SSL's.

    The D series Cats use electronic throttles that are a dial and they use electronic foot throttles with throttle smoothing and a decellerator function when the hand throttle is at full throttle.

    He must be a Green or Red guy, I'd never be without my foot throttle in my Fendt. With the Vario CVT and TMS you use the pedal to just drive it like a car, RPM's are automatically adjusted to the load and the transmissions being a CVT does everything else on its own as well, you drive around with a go pedal and stop pedal. They also allow you to adjust the scaling of the pedal by adjusting the maxinimum speed. This is nice when chopping, you can have it set to 34mph then when you get in the field you can pull it back to 10mph for driving next to the chopper, this rescales the pedal and gives you better control. Of course Fendt also have the agressiveness setting on the joystick that allows you to set the sensitivity/accelleration rate. I'd never own another tractor without a foot throttle. Especially for packing silage, your hands are busy running the hydraulics, you need the foot throttle I don't think you'd find anyone who would pack without one.

    Go pedal/stop pedal. There is a "Clutch" but its plastic as you only use it as a safety interlock to start the tractor. They also put it in there for new operators when they get flustered and go "oh snit", kind of an emergency pedal in a way too. Only one brake pedal because we have Dual circuit braking on this one due to the amount of time we spend on the road.

    20130921_172805_zps31ceca2b.jpg

    Bobcat has also always been a major proponent for foot controls so I would see why they never worried about foot throttles. Possibly why they have had the poorest EH controls as well.

    In our Cat's they have the foot throttle for your right foot and a raised hump for your left, makes things very comfortable as your feet sit at the same angle. Now if you do not want to use it, there is still room next to it or behind it, but not a ton.

    I just can't wait to have th D series where there is no cable anymore and its sealed into the cab.

    The Volvos are JCB's, I have noticed sometimes when digging into a pile it can take the motor a second to catch up, if I were doing heavy work all day though I would run the foot throttle higher or just keep the hand throttle up. Every operator is different though. personally I struggle with Pilot and EH controls with the hand throttle all the way up because I never run it that way so I have a hard time "finessing".

    The D series has a decel option once the hand throttle is all the way up.

    Yes, you run the speed stick all the way forward and use the throttle to adjust your speed. Mot of our tasks on the farm are lift and carry so the foot throttle is very nice. Now on traditional mechanical sticks I think it would be a different story, but with the limited movement of Pilot and Eh controls I feel its much nicer to use the throttle to control speed.
     
  6. durallymax

    durallymax Senior Member

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    DEF has absolutely nothing to do with regeneration, it is a completely seperate system aimed at a different goal.

    I've explained this a lot but I will try to keep it short a simple.

    DPF catches Soot/particulate matter.

    DEF is the fluid used with SCR to reduce NOX emissions.

    In general the hotter and more complete and engine burns its fuel the higher the NOX emissions will be and the lower the PM emissions will be. That is why up until Tier 4 final you saw so many OEM's retarding timing, lowering compression ratios and introducing cooled EGR. They were trying to create colder combustions with less oxygen to keep the NOX emissions down. However this created immense amounts of PM. Take the DPF off one of those older motors and hit the throttle and you will often see a black cloud. Obviously the filters loaded up fast.

    With SCR on the newer engines they were able to go back to increased timing, little to no EGR, higher compression ratios and overall hotter more complete combustion. This reduced PM drastically but sent NOX emissions through the roof. However with SCR there isn't really a limit to what it can scrub from the exhaust. SCR is simply, DEF (32.5% industrial grade Urea/67.5% Deionized water) is injected into the exhaust before the SCR catalyst where it reacts with the NOX and turns it into Nitrogen and H20 with a trace amount of CO2. Since the engines are burning the fuel much better the fuel efficiency has gone up and most importantly the DPF does not fill up anywhere near as quickly.

    Now everybody has heard of DPF regens. The exhaust needs to be over 900* in order for passive regeneration to occur. This is when the engine is just being worked hard enough that it creates hot enough EGT's to clean the filter with no help. However this does not happen enough to always keep the filter clean so an "Active" regeneration is needed. This is when the ECM takes over and will restrict the intake air and inject fuel either on the exhaust stroke or into the exhaust downstream from the turbo. Basically they are trying to create a serious amount of heat to clean the DPF. I did not watch the video on the JCB skid steer, IIRC JCB has an interesting technology that meets Tier4F. However Volvo on their larger engines also uses an air pump to literally create a jet stream in the exhaust to cleanse the filter. This uses less fuel for regens and while it is complex it does work well.

    One thing many people get confused by is the regen process. It's not expelling the soot from the exhaust, it is just reducing the trapped particles to the ash and cleansing the rest of the junk out of the filter. The actual bad stuff is still trapped in there which is why the filter needs to be removed and cleaned or replaced from time to time.


    The reason Ram did not have SCR on the passenger Cummins trucks (Chassis Cab's did have it) was due to some emissions credits they had. People really need to watch this, just because other engines are meeting the specs does not mean they all are. There are emissions credits that companies earn and can apply where they see fit. Ram did use a NOX catalyst on the passenger versions but did not use SCR until recently.

    Another thing to note is the different power categories. A 500hp engine does not have to meet the same specs as a 60hp engine. They are all broken into their respective power categories which is why you see many OEM's like Cat de rating some machines to get under the limits. They also tend to have slightly different phase in times.

    For Tier 4 the power categories are

    less than 11hp
    11-25hp
    25-50
    50-75
    75-175
    175-750
    750+


    While on this topic it is also important to note that not all diesels are under the same regs. Many people confuse this when comparing cars with semis and off road equipment. Cars/light trucks have their standards. Heavy Duty on road trucks have theirs, off road engines have theirs, gensets have theirs, marine engines have theirs and locomotives have theirs. The "Tier" word confuses many people. For example an LML Durmax meets Tier2 Bin5 standards. This has absolutley no relation to Tier 2 for off road engines. People will confuse Tier 4 with EPA10 truck emissions.

    In the end just remember it is not simple nor cut and dry, you have to research a lot in order to make a fair comparison.
     
  7. Canadian_digger

    Canadian_digger Senior Member

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    My vote is for foot throttle! Would not buy a machine without one!
     
  8. Cat287B

    Cat287B Well-Known Member

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    It has a plastic window on the right side which does cut down on air movement. Glad it's not July.
     
  9. Cat287B

    Cat287B Well-Known Member

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    If you have a a hand throttle in your car and both hands on the wheel how do you eat or text?
     
  10. Ben Witter

    Ben Witter Senior Member

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    Did you ever think to ask the dealer if they offered a foot pedal as an option???????
     
  11. durallymax

    durallymax Senior Member

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    Buy a Volvo/JCB to avoid a DPF? You should learn more about emissions than what a Bobcat video shows you. No offense, its a tricky subject that many take advantage of.

    For starters they are only referencing the machines in the 75-175hp bracket. The smaller machines made by JCB use a Kohler Diesel. The machines over 75hp have slightly tighter standards. Heres where the word trickery comes into play. JCB says they can do it without a DPF BUT they have a DOC. The DOC does not filter all of the particulates but it does remove the organic ones. It is much different than a DPF, but again there is still a big filter on the motor either way you slice the bread. JCB does use CEGR also. They also state a 2,000bar/29,000psi injection system. To me that says they must be using a CP4 pump which is known to have its issues.

    At the end of the day, I would not base SSL/CTL purchases on emissions technology alone. It sucks no matter what and I just really do not think there is enough difference between companies to base a decision on that solely.
     
  12. dave esterns

    dave esterns Senior Member

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    i knew talking about foot throttles would stir up the pot.

    personally, i never use foot throttles, despite having many machines that have one/have had one before i removed it. seems to me the only time you really need a foot throttle is when you have a manual transmission like a semi, car, or some tractors. i gave the foot throttle a 500 hour chance in the skid steer, but found it to be more of an inconvenience than a convenience, and for the little bit i did want it i decided i would rather have the extra room. actually if their was a wide open throttle button on the joystick that would be my preference because the only times i did ever use it was just to floor it quick so i could dig more.

    i remember when i first started driving cars my first thought was "this is really inconvenient that i have to hold the throttle down the entire time I'm driving."

    i should probably specify that in a car i would want more of a speed throttle than an engine throttle. set the lever at the speed you want and forget it. like a hydro on your lawnmower. and don't worry i could drive text run the hand throttle and eat at the same time no problem at all.

    on the contrary, i would argue it would be much harder for a new user to use a foot throttle. not only because there is another task to do, but because the sensitivity of the controls vary based on engine rpm so what you do with the lever changes nearly infinitely based on engine rpm.

    in my area, nearly every deer bobcat new holland and case is still sold without joystick controls. it is very rare to see any with joysticks, and every dealer has around 20 new ones in stock still with standard controls.

    i do not see where bobcat pushes their hand foot controls; their just the only ones who have been smart enough not to force their customers to change. bobcat has arguably the most capable control system on a skid steer and they know it.

    the only reason why people think bobcat is behind on their eh controls is because they have been doing it forever and people remember the early ones. the truth is bobcat has the best eh system on the market because they have had over a decade to perfect it.

    j c b/volvo skid steers are not using scr or dpf for tier 4i. doc is not a maintenance item. seems to me to be a very compelling reason to purchase.

    i refuse to buy scr or dpf at this time. i will push back as long as possible. dpf would be a very good way to burn down the farm. and aint nobody got time for that racket anyway.

    as far as nobody liking no screens on the sides of the volvo; obviously you probably would want more protection than most skid steers are offering if your in the logging or demo business or something. the windows are tempered and i believe it takes 24,000 psi to break one (not sure on the figure). so between being a smart operator, and having pretty tough glass, it is my preference on a skid steer. i believe lexan is an option but I'm not sure on which windows.

    the snorkel pre filter was a factory kit option which was found out to be needed in extreme environments. the current machines have an integral pre filter with active scavenging right on the air filter, and a true pre filter is still an option but routing is now through the machine.

    at the local dealer i sat in a case with a foot throttle and when i rested my foot in "the location," the throttle was pushed all the way down and i wasn't even pushing on it. i sat in an older one and that did not happen. brands vary with foot throttle interference in the footwell area.

    I'm happy to see deer now got rid of their plastic footwell that was the only thing between your foot and the front of the machine. now its metal between your foot and the front. although the plastic footwell may still be there.

    actually the best skid steer foot throttle i have seen was on a terex. it stayed where you put it. of course it wouldn't work once the cab filled up with trash, but thats beside the point.

    cat brags about their throttle smoothing, but the volvo seems to have it too because its kinda necessary with an electric throttle.

    so… do you like this volvo you are using?
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
  13. Cat287B

    Cat287B Well-Known Member

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    Well I only got to run it for about 5 hours. It was a used machine with 720 hours on it. The elecronic panel had some issues with a flashing fuel light and being full off fuel. Could not use panel for 2 hours or so. Hydraulics had a problem where you could not pick up the bucket while you pushing a full load of dirt..
    Then I noticed a lot of blue smoke while machine was not under a load. The salesman called his mechanic out and he parked the machine, said it needed a new engine.
    I did not like all the blind spots on the right side. Very low ground clearance not sure of difference between other brands. I did get it stuck knocking down piles of dry fill, ran of the edge and stopped for a smoke break. (blue smoke from engine) When i got back on tracks spun right down and had to bucket my way out.
     
  14. Chass

    Chass Well-Known Member

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    yep I agree with you (KSSS) that pre cleaner problem and a foot throttle is a must save heaps on fuel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
  15. Chass

    Chass Well-Known Member

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    i agree with what you are saying
     
  16. Tags

    Tags Senior Member

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    None of those things sound like anything I'd like about any machine! Why are they not giving you a new machine to demo? It doesn't seem like your dealer is too interested in selling you one, if they were, they wouldn't let you demo a machine that wasn't in perfect operating condition. If the dealer is treating you like this now, how will they be to you After you purchase one and have a problem?
     
  17. dave esterns

    dave esterns Senior Member

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    i did not realize this was a demo. that IS laughable that they brought you out that machine. the new ones are very different for starters.

    however, the "demo" on a brand new machine has seemed to go by the wayside around here. nobody really does that any more. i can understand why the dealers don't like the idea… we got to demo a new j c b 260 before we bought our 205 though.
     
  18. JCBiron

    JCBiron Well-Known Member

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    Instead of a bunch of quotes, I'll just try and remember a few of the finer points:

    - I'm surprised at the number of people who are unfamiliar with a F/T in a skid/ctl.....guess Bobcat had a bigger chunk of the pie that I thought!! :eek:

    - F/T is a low cost option on any JCB (and I would assume Volvo) skid loader. Our floorpan is very large, so I can't see how it would obstruct your feet or cause discomfort. For the record, I would like to see it "tighter" to the front face of the cab (easier on the ankle)

    - Yes JCB Ecomax uses CEGR, VVT (variable turbo), and HPCR (common rail) and the new Kohler diesel will have a DOC in the small frame units - however, none of these components are serviceable, and most have been around for a while and are proven technology. Is it the ONLY reason to buy a JCB/Volvo??? Maybe, maybe not. But definitely a leg up on the competition as far as emissions tech goes.

    - Side steel mesh is optional on any JCB skid/CTL (as well as lexan)

    - Durallymax....nice explanation on the T4 tech....

    - Pre-cleaner that was shown on that Volvo was a band-aid fix for an issue we had on Tier 3 units dirty-ing filters pre-maturely. Notice I didn't say "failing", because they actually weren't failing them. Admittedly, the fitters on the T3 machines would fill up quickly. However, they have an air restriction indicator in the cab, and the service schedule says to REPLACE the filter when the indicator lights up. This is contrary to what we have all been taught forever regarding filters.....how many guys take them out at every oil check and blow them out? I did too. But all that does is wear out the seal on the filter and gives you more chance to dust the engine. Long and short is that JCB completely changed the intake/filter/flow of the incoming air and now has a much more efficient system with a built in exhaust aspirator and separate clean air intake (which looks MUCH nicer than this bolt on monstrosity)....
     
  19. CM1995

    CM1995 Super Moderator

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    I agree. The dealer probably did CAT287B a favor -if that machine had that many problems at 700 hours.:cool:

    The dealers in my area will drop a new machine in a heart beat if you are interested. I have to be careful what I say to the salesman because they'll have a lowboy on the job before you know it.:D
     
  20. Cat287B

    Cat287B Well-Known Member

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    We were demo'ing this particular used machine.