1. Thank you for visiting HeavyEquipmentForums.com! Our objective is to provide industry professionals a place to gather to exchange questions, answers and ideas. We welcome you to register using the "Register" icon at the top of the page. We'd appreciate any help you can offer in spreading the word of our new site. The more members that join, the bigger resource for all to enjoy. Thank you!
  2. ALL NEW MEMBERS READ THIS FIRST!! Thank you for joining Heavy Equipment Forums! If you are new to forums we communicate with "Threads", please search our threads to see if your topic may have already been answered and if not then click "Post New Thread" in the appropriate forum. This will allow all of our members to see your question and give you the best chance to be answered. After you've made a number of posts you will graduate to Full Member status where you'll see a few more privileges. Following these guidelines will help make this the best resource for heavy equipment on the net. Thanks for joining us and I hope you enjoy your stay!!

Volvo axle oils for wet brakes

Discussion in 'Lubrication' started by Volvomad, Oct 3, 2020.

  1. Volvomad

    Volvomad Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Ireland
    Was thinking of changing to TO-4 SAE 50 . Volvo spec is WB 101 . I have always used premium brand 80W utto oils meeting WB101 . Problem is on spec sheets these oils get fairly light at 100 degree C and in reality when draining warm to hot it is pss . To make matters worse the utto's are getting lighter at 100 degrees c on the spec sheets . Over the years have had failures of pinnion bearings, crownwheel bearings and crownwheel teeth . Cant help but think a thicker oil would suit the application . We always used EP90 until the brakes got wet .
     
  2. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    G..G..G..Granville...........!!
    You could try an SAE50 TO-4. It will work with wet brakes. Problem with “thicker” oils is that you can lose lubricant performance when it is cold (less than 65DegC oil temperature).

    Are you talking about haul truck or wheel loader application.?
     
  3. Volvomad

    Volvomad Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Ireland
    Wheel loaders . They normally work fairly hard . If they are on short cycles they are stockpiling ,if not they move alot including on public roads so they would always be fairly warm . Outside temp rarely falls below 0 C.
    Would SAE40 be better suited?
     
  4. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    G..G..G..Granville...........!!
    For wheel loader differentials & final drives I'd go with SAE50 in a TO-4. Certainly that's what the equivalent Cat machine would use in your climate conditions.
    Got any oil analysis results to work with.?

    FWIW Volvo WB101 spec in a commerical oil seems to broadly equate to Cat TO-2 which was the forerunner of TO-4. Effectively the WB101 spec seems to be nothing more than a "universal tractor fluid" (I hate that designation TBH, but farmers seem to like it because they can fill everything from one drum) so quite frankly anything quality supplied by a decent name-brand oil company ought to be a step up from that. It's also a mulitgrade which is not the best thing for axles IMHO.

    I would say that you should be pretty safe using a TO-4 oil. It will certainly work fine with the wet brakes.

    Viscosity-wise you're right. At 100 DegC a WB101 oil ought to run like pi$$......... it's an even lower viscosity than an SAE30 TO-4. In fact viscosity-wise it comes about half-way between an SAE10W and an SAE30 TO-4. WTF...??
     
  5. heymccall

    heymccall Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,292
    Location:
    Monroeville, Pa
    I run Deere HyGard in all my wet brake axles.

    Had two L70E and one did eat a pinion bearing at 3k hours. The other 3 axles remained untouched until I sold them. Surprising, the pinion bearing failure was just past 3k hours, and the lube oil was Volvo spec, done by my Volvo dealer. I liked that you could change wet brakes w/o removing the whole axle, but, who's the moron who designed the rear axle mount/ pivot. What a PITA compared to my other loaders.
     
  6. Volvomad

    Volvomad Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Ireland
    Sorry Nige ,no oil analysis . Was reading a post by u about using TO in hitachi final drives. Makes perfect sense cosidering they have wet brakes . Must try that too.
    heymcall , had little trouble with 70 axles, its the 90E and mostly the rear which is only a 70 axle carrying alot more weight and torque . Never used Hyguard ,but use the same utto for the johndeere backends as volvo axles .
    Wondering how TO40 would work in a semi powershift tractor or the old round cabs where the lack of charge circuit pressure is like a runaway train as temp rises .
     
  7. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    3,266
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    Stick with WB101 or 102. Use mobil 424 as an alternative. Switching oils will cause you grief. The brakes will become grabby and your operator will get acquainted with the seatbelt or windshield, whichever comes first. There are tight clearances in the outer reductions as well as the differential itself. You don't need "thicker" for proper lubrication. It just needs to be there, and services regularly. If you change the viscosity, it won't adequately flow where its needed and you wind up with fretting and galling. The limited slip (if equipped) won't appreciate the heavier oil either.
    Your equipment, your budget. A couple cents to the gallon now could mean thousands in parts and excessive downtime later.
     
    mg2361 likes this.
  8. Volvomad

    Volvomad Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Ireland
    I have already put in thousands while always using premium quality WB101 spec oil at recommended intervals . I have no problem paying a little more on 25liters of oil but I am trying to prevent more big breaks .
    No LS on this machine.
    It was mad to put a smaller axle on the back of this machine . I am not the one penny pinching here (though I usually try where possible but without being short sighted)
     
    funwithfuel likes this.
  9. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    3,266
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    I would weigh the cost of 102 against 101. They claimed that the 102 would allow you to double your drain intervals. That may help with costs in maintenance.
    What size loader are you working with? I think the LSD was an option on 150 and up. I have seen issues with the diff lock solenoid leaking oil to the lock fork. So basically it would apply the locks as you were operating. Just something to be aware of.
     
    mg2361 likes this.
  10. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    G..G..G..Granville...........!!
    Solution to grabby/noisy brakes in wet braked loader axles filled with TO-4 oil is an anti-chatter additive.

    TBH when I looked at the spec for WB101 initially I couldn’t believe a company like Volvo would recommend something as badly-specced as that fluid appears to be.
     
  11. Volvomad

    Volvomad Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Ireland
    L70's up to D and a L90E .
    Have had the solenoid problem before on the L70D which also has LS on back . The LS will tell you pretty quick if it doesnt like the oil or if it needs changing .
    I only came accross WB102 before I started this thread ,while looking up oil spec sheets .
    In my own head a wheel loader filling a bucket of difficult material on hard ground at maximum rimpull with large weight transfer and a very small amount of intermittent wheelspin driven through a stalled torque converter at max multiplication all add up to extreme gear loads and they are expected to run in water .
     
  12. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    3,266
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    It's the fact that it is so thin that helps the fluid migrate everywhere it needs to be. Back in the day, manual trans factory fill was 75w90 now most run SAE50 .WB102 is basically hydro with friction mods. Can you think of an oil with higher shear strength. Look at the abuse hydraulic pumps and motors endure, especially HSTs . Komatsu use SAE30 in their travel boxes and swing gears with good success. I think cat uses 30 as well. I wouldn't concern myself with the viscosity so much as, is it present and does it have suspended material? Scheduled drains with oil sampling should give you a heads up as to when things are deteriorating.
     
    mg2361 likes this.
  13. Volvomad

    Volvomad Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Ireland
    Would a higher viscosity at operating temperature provide a bigger cushion between gears , especially a crownwheel and pinion ?
    Are 90 gear oil and sae50 almost the same viscosity ?
    I would be doubtful an oil sample could predict sudden geartooth or half shaft failure .
    I must look into WB102 a bit more .
    I am not trying to be argumentive . I really appreciate all input and info .
     
  14. funwithfuel

    funwithfuel Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2017
    Messages:
    3,266
    Occupation:
    Mechanic
    Location:
    Will county Illinois
    Hard part failure is unpredictable. It's a result of fatigue and/or shock load. Oil analysis will tell you if you have a bearing shedding material, excessive brake disc indicating a drag or sticking floating disc. Soft metals would tell you if you thrust bearings are failing. I don't think any viscosity change is gonna protect you from a hard part failure. That would be the golden goose.
     
    mg2361 likes this.
  15. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    G..G..G..Granville...........!!
    Would a higher viscosity at operating temperature provide a bigger cushion between gears , especially a crownwheel and pinion ? - Provided the required fluid film thickness was maintained, yes.
    Are 90 gear oil and sae50 almost the same viscosity ? - Almost. 90 gear oil is a shade lighter than 50, say about a 45.
    I would be doubtful an oil sample could predict sudden geartooth or half shaft failure. - You would be correct.

    When you are doing your research, you could also take a look at multigrade TO-4 oils. Cat's product is called TDTO-TMS - other manufacturer options are available.
     
    mg2361 likes this.
  16. heymccall

    heymccall Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,292
    Location:
    Monroeville, Pa
    My other thought here is to add axle oil coolers. They are mandatory on my Deere 544 machines.
    Were here in Pittsburgh, PA where we range from 10° to 95°F and axle coolers are now mandatory unless the transmissions are hydrostatic.

    My 544G machines have a single wet friction disc per side, and the axles ran warm, but lasted quite a while between brake seals (7to9k hrs on average), and, never have I done bearings yet (all three of my 544G have over 22k hours now).
    My TC54H came to me with new brake design (6or7 wet disc per side) and would eat carrier and pinion bearings before the 3k hour mark. Rebuilt both axles several times, and dumped the machine before 10k hours.
    My 2 544J had the same multidisc brake axle but a different brake valve, and, the brake would become non-responsive after 3hours of running, due to unknown...until, the dealer determined that the axles were getting too hot. Added axle oil coolers and a recirculation system and have never looked back.
    My 544K has axle oil coolers, recirculation, and spin on axle oil filters. I've never touched the axles, save for oil changes...using Deere Hygard.

    Me thinks you need axle coolers, not thicker oil.
     
    Nige and funwithfuel like this.
  17. Nige

    Nige Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    G..G..G..Granville...........!!
    A very good suggestion if they are available as a factory option. If not, installing the lines & a 2-section pump could present a few challenges.

    I would imagine in Ireland that the ambient temperature would be lucky to break 70 on a hot summer’s day and would rarely go below freezing even in winter, so the OP has a much narrower range of ambient temperature variation than you do.
     
  18. Volvomad

    Volvomad Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Ireland
    90% of the time we are between 5 and 20C . Never checked axle temp ,but they never seem overly hot . The oil never smells cooked . With 20 to 25K clocked up an each and owned from new or almost ,done alot or roading and have never wore down a brake disk or replaced a brake seal . A cooler would improve viscosity but a multigrade oil sounds like amore cost effective way to go . Axle oil filtration sounds like super job .
     
    Nige likes this.