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Travel issues with TK TB257FR.

Welder Dave

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You are still a customer with the dealer you bought it from. Get on their case, they sold it to you and are responsible for losing the Taki dealership. Get them to haul it to Boise if they won't fix it themselves. That's what good customer service is!
.
 

suladas

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Takeuchi just seems awful the way they do things. Here in the past 10ish years there's been 3 different dealers for them, I don't think i've ever seen another brand switching around like that. They are the absolute worst trying to get parts for, and shipping times are pathetic. The dealer here says Tak forces them to use their shipper so getting things from the US takes like 2 weeks and is expensive whereas other dealers can get a part from anywhere in North America next day for pennies. I plan to keep my Tak mini hoe forever and I really like it, but I would never buy another Tak piece of equipment ever. I had the previous dealer work on mine for a wiring issue many years ago and the service was just as bad, they even complained Tak was of no help to them trying to fix it.

It's a shitty situation all around, problem is no matter what you're going to be out of pocket money and fighting Tak to cover it as they should.
 

Welder Dave

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Regardless of how bad Taki is the dealer he bought the machine from should look after him even if it means giving a very generous trade in allowance. Taki isn't the 1st. company to shoot themselves in the foot regarding dealerships. They have unrealistic estimates of how many machines the dealers can sell and expect the those dealers to buy more machines than they can sell. It ties up too much money for the dealers. My dad's company sold commercial turf equipment. He sold Hustler commercial mowers that were the top of the line and the 1st with dual path hydrostatic drive for each side. They were the best machines on the market and also the most expensive. After a few years of very respectable sales Hustler all of a sudden thought the sales should be about 3 times more and wanted my dad to buy that many more machines. There was no way that was going to happen. There were other good less expensive machines on the market. My dad dropped the Hustler line. Several years later another dealer picked up Hustler but they never came close to matching the sales my dad's company had. Pretty dumb on Hustlers part. Sounds like Taki is doing the same thing. If parts and dealer support are a hassle is even worse.
 

KSSS

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Did you ever get any resolution on this?
This whole thing simply wreaks! Having to pay $1k per day to get warranty work done is simply NOT acceptable. Takeuchi should allow you to get the thing repaired in your area if you can find a qualified technician to do the work. Pioneer (your local Case, and formerly Takeuchi dealer) has the qualified help. I'd bet money that they have several mechanics that have been trained by Tak directly. Please check the fine print of your warranty. They may even have such a clause in there as tho allow this if you are a certain distance away from a certified dealer. Even if not, I would think that they would let you take it to Pioneer since that was the Tak dealer when you bought the machine. Especially considering the distance factor as well as the sudden franchise termination.
In my mind it is another example of the LIE that we are being fed daily. That lie is the constant barrage of the pitch that tells us how if you buy their tractors (be it Tak, Case, Deere, etc., etc,.....ANY brand) they will be there to help take care of you. That message comes from the salesman, they send it to you in postcards, brand magazines, emails, and we even get to hear those lies while we are on hold during the phone call to try to get them to keep their promise. It fries me to no end how that is forgotten as soon as it might cost the dealer, or MFR some money to make something right. In this case I don't even see how it will really cost Tak that much. They are going to have to pay the Boise dealer to fix it...Why do they care who they write the check to? Get the customer taken care of. Save face with your brand. Build customer confidence instead of eroding it! If you are going to tell me that it is because the Boise dealer will do it for the "contracted warranty rate", I won't disagree with that.....But I bet that his local dealer will do it for that same amount too, even if it doesn't work out perfectly for them. IMHO they would do so because they sold him said machine and they would want to make it right for their customer. At least that's what I think that they should do. Of course, they may have also forgotten their "LIE" as well.

The one thing not addressed here is the possibility of additional trips to Boise. Often times issues like this can be difficult to get resolved. My mind wanders off to how many times I may have taken a machine to a dealer for repair, only to have to return it (one, or even more times) when the machine exhibited the issue again once I got it back to the job, or shortly there-after. It is bad enough of a pain when the dealership is only 30 minutes away, let alone 4.5 hours. Of course, there is the option to try out the machine before you leave the dealership. Unfortunately, often times there may not be a place there to really put the machine through it's paces, or to simulate the conditions in which the machine exhibits the issue.
I empathize with you in this. I am in a similar boat with my Bobcats. I refuse to do business with the local dealer so I am forced to take a 4 hour drive north (over two 11,000' elevation passes) to get decent service done on them. I hate even thinking about it. I am having more issues with my "long in the tooth" Bobcat (6,500 hrs on her now) which has brought me back to considering the FR Taks again. As long as I have been on this forum you have been a strong advocate for the Tak brand. It is unfortunate to see that you have soured on them now.
I have (3) possible sources for Tak in my little town. It seems like they will let anyone sell them with no real regard to franchise controls or areas. To that point, United Rentals can sell them. You might consider that as an option but, I must admit, my previous experiences with UR mechanics doesn't leave me with a ton of confidence. You never know....Maybe there is a good one on your area.
Again, I'd like to hear an update as to where you're at in the process of getting it fixed.


Interesting you mention UR. They called me 10 days ago wanting to know why I haven't utilized my UR account much. Over the course of the conversation, the issue with my Taki came up. He suggested that they may be able to work on it. I waited to hear from him, and never did. I just got off the phone with UR out of Pocatello (50 miles away). They are going to confirm if they can take it on. To your point, I didn't get a warm fuzzy that they have the training and time to fix it. I told him that the machine can be sitting in my shop or theirs for the next several months. I just need it by March. Hopefully something comes of this. I was told they are not set up like Boise would be to handle customer's machines, but perhaps they can take it on.

As far as Taki letting Pioneer work on it....Taki is adamant that they will not pay for anyone else to work on it, while the money may be the same, this has become personal for them. They wont even let Pioneer assess the issue, even though they have Taki trained mechanic. I spoke with the mechanic in Boise, he had no idea what is wrong with it, spoke with Taki and they don't either according to the mechanic. So likely not an easy fix. It will not get resolved from anyone other than the Taki dealership in Boise. I have had a great relationship with Taki prior to this. They sent me an early proto type TB257 to run prior to their release into the States. After that they, were talking about doing the same thing on other machines (that is not happening). I know or knew several of the upper management people there at one time, pretty clear things have changed there. I looked into this entire issue regarding Pioneer losing the dealership. This included me getting all the email discussions regarding the issue. Pretty clear where the problem lies. I had email discussions with the President of Taki in NA. While they thank me for being a customer, they have no issue abandoning Western Wy, and Eastern Idaho customer support. My new dealer is in Boise and that is my issue to provide them the machine. Your right, it may result in multiple trips to Boise to get it resolved. The post someone put out about a 2150 with the same issue and it was never resolved, doesn't instill a lot of confidence.

There are a lot of upset Taki customers around here. If they ever do find someone in this area to take Taki on as dealer, they have a lot of bridges to rebuild.

It's mess. Fool me once....
 

KSSS

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Regardless of how bad Taki is the dealer he bought the machine from should look after him even if it means giving a very generous trade in allowance. Taki isn't the 1st. company to shoot themselves in the foot regarding dealerships. They have unrealistic estimates of how many machines the dealers can sell and expect the those dealers to buy more machines than they can sell. It ties up too much money for the dealers. My dad's company sold commercial turf equipment. He sold Hustler commercial mowers that were the top of the line and the 1st with dual path hydrostatic drive for each side. They were the best machines on the market and also the most expensive. After a few years of very respectable sales Hustler all of a sudden thought the sales should be about 3 times more and wanted my dad to buy that many more machines. There was no way that was going to happen. There were other good less expensive machines on the market. My dad dropped the Hustler line. Several years later another dealer picked up Hustler but they never came close to matching the sales my dad's company had. Pretty dumb on Hustlers part. Sounds like Taki is doing the same thing. If parts and dealer support are a hassle is even worse.

That is exactly the situation. Taki wanted them to commit to more CTL's then they have ever sold in the past. The dealer was good with taking all the mini excavators that Taki wanted them to commit to.

The dealer would likely give me a nice trade allowance. They don't have anything I want. While I like a lot of what CASE offers (fullsize excavators, BH, wheel loaders and SSL/CTL's), I am not down with their mini ex line. Honestly, I don't think a lot of anyone's mini ex line after owning FR machines. I have been running the FR's since 2003. They provide me a great advantage, that said, things will have to change for me in this area at some point when I get the next mini ex. I wont be held hostage like this again.
 
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heymccall

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Nowhere here do I see any analysis info from the dealer reports.

Takeuchi must be changing, as I've never had a bad experience talking to someone in Atlanta until 2 weeks ago.
I was told that the information I was seeking was dealer only.

All I wanted to know was if the machine ECM needed to see alternator tach signal to remain running.

I have books, prints, diagrams, and everything else, but the machine ECM theory isn't in there.

Mind you, I only have 8 Takeuchi machines, and few with over over 10k hours.

Since it worked correctly when new (your FR machine), and it now has quite few hours on it, and you're not getting dealer resolution on the issue, can we pick it apart (the issue, that is)?

Do you have the shop manual?

Does travel issue actually slow the engine down?

If you stall the boom up (hook the bucket on something immovable or under the blade), does the motor falter at as you cycle on and off relief?

If you block a final and stall it in turtle, how does the engine react (put a large pin in between the teeth and the frame)?

I'm curious to know if it a travel only issue.
 
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KSSS

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Nowhere here do I see any analysis info from the dealer reports.

Takeuchi must be changing, as I've never had a bad experience talking to someone in Atlanta until 2 weeks ago.
I was told that the information I was seeking was dealer only. There is no question in my mind that Taki is changing and not for the better, at least in their customer interaction.

ll I wanted to know was if the machine ECM needed to see alternator tach signal to remain running.

I have books, prints, diagrams, and everything else, but the machine ECM theory isn't in

ll I wanted to know was if the machine ECM needed to see alternator tach signa there.

Mind you, I only have 8 Takeuchi machines, and few with over over 10k hours. I know you have tons of experience with these machines, much more than I do. I have about 12-14K hours on their FR excavators. Collectively I don't know that I spent more than 2K on repairs to the other 3 FR machines that I have had combined. I traded those machines out at between 4-5K hours. I believe in the product.

Since it worked correctly when new (your FR machine), and it now has quite few hours on it, and you're not getting dealer resolution on the issue, can we pick it apart (the issue, that is)? The machine has 500 hours on it now, and about 350 when the issue presented itself. The power to the tracks reduces itself and then powers back up intermittently. It does it in both directions and in both speeds. If you listen close you can hear the pump go over relief or a noise similar. There is a noise, but I am not sure what it is or means, it just reminds me of the sound when a pump goes over relief. As you suggested, I replaced the fuel filters, cleaned out the sediment bowl and checked for obstructions, and found nothing. I replaced all the hyd. filters and changed out the hyd fluid. None of it helped.

Do you have the shop manual? I have the owners manual and that is it.

Does travel issue actually slow the engine down? It does not. The tracks slow down but it doesn't pull the engine down.

If you stall the boom up (hook the bucket on something immovable or under the blade), does the motor falter at as you cycle on and off relief? It does not, the machine does not pull down when pushed over relief. It functions completely as it should and as it did since it was new, except the travel issue.

If you block a final and stall it in turtle, how does the engine react (put a large pin in between the teeth and the frame) I can try that.

I'm curious to know if it a travel only issue.

The only issue is with travel
 

heymccall

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I only keep going back "is it just a travel problem" because travel uses the absolute most volume from the pump.
Boom, arm, swing, sideshift, etc all use very little pump volume, relatively speaking.

The fact that the issue occurs in both rabbit and turtle kinda rules out the 2 speed function and it's associated pressure sensor, or, does it?

Could a faulty pressure switch on the travel circuit be the issue?

I cannot find a service or parts manual on the web to pick it apart?

Do electronics control the pump displacement?

Again, I cannot find anything on it.

Do you have a service manual?
 

uffex

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Good day
Attached may help out.
Kind regards
Uffex
 

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  • Takky HydSys Crawlers.pdf
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DGODGR

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Interesting you mention UR. They called me 10 days ago wanting to know why I haven't utilized my UR account much. Over the course of the conversation, the issue with my Taki came up. He suggested that they may be able to work on it. I waited to hear from him, and never did. I just got off the phone with UR out of Pocatello (50 miles away). They are going to confirm if they can take it on. To your point, I didn't get a warm fuzzy that they have the training and time to fix it. I told him that the machine can be sitting in my shop or theirs for the next several months. I just need it by March. Hopefully something comes of this. I was told they are not set up like Boise would be to handle customer's machines, but perhaps they can take it on.

As far as Taki letting Pioneer work on it....Taki is adamant that they will not pay for anyone else to work on it, while the money may be the same, this has become personal for them. They wont even let Pioneer assess the issue, even though they have Taki trained mechanic. I spoke with the mechanic in Boise, he had no idea what is wrong with it, spoke with Taki and they don't either according to the mechanic. So likely not an easy fix. It will not get resolved from anyone other than the Taki dealership in Boise. I have had a great relationship with Taki prior to this. They sent me an early proto type TB257 to run prior to their release into the States. After that they, were talking about doing the same thing on other machines (that is not happening). I know or knew several of the upper management people there at one time, pretty clear things have changed there. I looked into this entire issue regarding Pioneer losing the dealership. This included me getting all the email discussions regarding the issue. Pretty clear where the problem lies. I had email discussions with the President of Taki in NA. While they thank me for being a customer, they have no issue abandoning Western Wy, and Eastern Idaho customer support. My new dealer is in Boise and that is my issue to provide them the machine. Your right, it may result in multiple trips to Boise to get it resolved. The post someone put out about a 2150 with the same issue and it was never resolved, doesn't instill a lot of confidence.

There are a lot of upset Taki customers around here. If they ever do find someone in this area to take Taki on as dealer, they have a lot of bridges to rebuild.

It's mess. Fool me once....
I'm sorry that UR doesn't seem like a good source for repair. I think that I know the feeling that you got when you thought about them working on your TB.
I hate hearing this. It doesn't give me much confidence with the brand. Even more frustrating is when only ONE MFR makes what you want....and they behave in a way that has them lose their integrity, and credibility. I may be just a dumb old dirt digger, but this whole thing seems short sided and counter intuitive. Don't they know that this is the information age?....That folks outside the region that Tak felt they would be willing to lose will talk to those in regions that they DO want to keep? Not only that, but how stupid is it to let go of all the sales in a region, because the dealer wouldn't buy more CTLs than they felt that they could sell? How many more machines were they trying force the dealer to buy? Let's speculate a bit...Maybe they wanted to make the dealer buy (10) more units. When the dealer said "No thank you....We can't sell that many" the MFR pulls the franchise so now they lose out on selling those (10) AND dozens of other units that the dealer was willing to buy. That just doesn't make good sense to me. It sounds a lot like cutting off your nose to site your face.
What happened to standing behind your brand?
 

Welder Dave

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It should be the same for the dealer that sold the machine. Look after your customer, especially on warranty on a new machine.
 

KSSS

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I'm sorry that UR doesn't seem like a good source for repair. I think that I know the feeling that you got when you thought about them working on your TB.
I hate hearing this. It doesn't give me much confidence with the brand. Even more frustrating is when only ONE MFR makes what you want....and they behave in a way that has them lose their integrity, and credibility. I may be just a dumb old dirt digger, but this whole thing seems short sided and counter intuitive. Don't they know that this is the information age?....That folks outside the region that Tak felt they would be willing to lose will talk to those in regions that they DO want to keep? Not only that, but how stupid is it to let go of all the sales in a region, because the dealer wouldn't buy more CTLs than they felt that they could sell? How many more machines were they trying force the dealer to buy? Let's speculate a bit...Maybe they wanted to make the dealer buy (10) more units. When the dealer said "No thank you....We can't sell that many" the MFR pulls the franchise so now they lose out on selling those (10) AND dozens of other units that the dealer was willing to buy. That just doesn't make good sense to me. It sounds a lot like cutting off your nose to site your face.
What happened to standing behind your brand?


The points you bring up DGODGR, are the exact same points I made to those at the highest level of the organization. It makes no sense. I waited a long time to bring this up, hoping it would not be necessary. They simply don't care, I can only assume that every dealer will carry X number of machines and if don't order them, then your out as a dealer. That is a pretty big stance to take for a company that has struggled maintaining a dealership network with any type of consistency since they came to NA. I mentioned several times that they are alienating a group of very loyal customers in this region, and they may not get them back. I suggested at least maintain Pioneer while you search for another dealer that will order all the machines you require in this area. NOPE. Your new dealer is now in BOISE. My only thought is that they look at this area and because its rural and relatively sparse population and think that any negative impact will be minimal. Honestly, in that respect they are not wrong, Taki likely didn't survive because they had a dealer here. As you pointed out, it is the information age, they are either shortsighted thinking their actions in one part of the country don't become known, or they simply don't care what the consequences are. They appear to have a policy on machine allocation and they are going to follow it, regardless of the consequences for the dealers and existing Taki customers and even the company itself. Its too bad, they build some great stuff, but you need a dealer you can count on to be there. It is every bit as important as any aspect of buying a machine. I would have thought having had a Taki dealer in my area for around 20 years established that I had a dealer I could count on. I thought wrong.
 

KSSS

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It should be the same for the dealer that sold the machine. Look after your customer, especially on warranty on a new machine.


I get your point. Had I not seen the correspondence regarding this issue, I would press them harder in this area. They did everything I would have done to keep the business. I wouldn't have ordered all those machines, even when the economy was much stronger this Spring. If things tank this next Spring like it very well may, they would be staring at a lot of red and grey iron in the lot. The dealership has been good to me, over the last 28 years, I need to pick which issues to go to war over.
 

Tags

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The thing is, these manufactures drive me nuts. You shouldn’t have to pick which issues to “go to war over”, dealerships now are mostly reliant on the service to generate consistent income, since everything is so electronically related in a machine most customers have no choice but to go back to the dealer. The manufacturer not only hurts the customer but screws the dealer too. You have an issue with your machine, you bought it from (at the time) a local dealer, tak decided to drop them because tak went and changed the rules the dealer was playing by, so shouldn’t tak bend and supply and pay for the transport to and from Boise? One would think, but they don’t. They sold you something that doesn’t operate as intended and won’t help with the expenses to haul it three hours to your now “local” dealer. If they transported it there and back how much better would this make you feel as a customer? A ton better, you’d feel that you made a good choice and felt good about spending your hard earned money with tak, instead you need to scratch and claw your way to a solution and pay the whole time you’re doing it. Such a load of crap, makes you mad enough to bite someone…..
 

Welder Dave

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The dealer has made thousands of dollars off you as well since you've been a loyal customer for almost 3 decades. I said it earlier if they can't fix they should at least get it to someone who can.
 

uffex

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Good day
It is a black pitcher you guys are painting, I come from a time when dealers were only used by the more obscure manufacturers. I can recall the outfit I worked for many years had the policy that direct contact with the end user was beneficial to the product quality.
Real shame that method of sales service is not so usual today.
Maybe a club can be formed to buy machines without warranty each individual could purchase there own insurance.
Kind regards
Uffex
 

DGODGR

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Interesting idea Uffex. I'm sure there could be some substantial savings if warranty were to be removed from purchase. I would think that some MFRs would "self insure" this but others would be buying this from an insurance company. I'd like to be a fly on the wall at the underwriters' office to hear what they say about the reliability of the individual MFR's as they rate them!! I would bet that they would have actual data on the subject. The hitch to this is that I would think it almost impossible to get said insurance for the same rate as the MFRs do. Obviously that would mean it would probably cost the end user more. How much more, and whether, or not, it would allow for other service providers to perform repairs, the amount that the insurance company would pay to make said repairs, etc., would have to be explored. The more I think about this, the more issues I'm coming up with. This looks like a lot that would have to be addressed by this "club".
 

DGODGR

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Well, it looks like a real dilemma for you Mr. K. Again, I empathize with your situation here. I have heard you (as well as many others on this site, including myself) espouse how important good support is when considering equipment purchase. The fact that all machines can break, even new ones, is evident here and drives the point home again. This also brings us back to why big brands, (such as CAT) enjoy the success and high re-sale value that they do. This is also why most large construction firms use the large brands. When was the last time you saw one of those branches go away, or a dealer "lose" their franchise?

Regardless, you are faced with a/some decision/s. Do you ditch the machine and find one that is supported in your area? Do you deal with taking it to Boise for warranty until this period is over (See the side note below*)? Or do you explore another option (**See the second side note below)? If so what do you have in mind? Do you even want to support a company that is treating you like Takuechi is? I'd bet that you will never buy from them again....I don't think that I would. Heck, I'm balking at the thought of it and I'm only hearing about this.
Side Notes:
*Global Machinery looks to be your "new local dealer". A quick rundown of their website does not give me a ton of confidence that they have what it takes to tackle a tough issue like the one you may be experiencing. One must again consider how many times they will have to look at the machine to attempt the repair, AND how many times will you have to return it to them for this. Maybe one and done but maybe not.
**I know that you have voiced sympathy for Pioneer but Welder Dave has a point. They did represent that they have been here for you, and would continue to be there for you, after the sale, when they sold you the machine. Again, you have stated your thoughts on being sympathetic to their position (and you also have some responsibility because you bought into said promise and the higher risk factor that comes with a somewhat smaller dealership) but they still represented these things to you. You haven't said that they did, but I've been doing this long enough to know that they did. All that being considered maybe you could approach Pioneer with the option of splitting the cost of repairing the machine. Maybe that would be more palatable for you. Especially if you have confidence that they could get the issue resolved. Hopefully they can get support from the MFR even if only for information and trouble shooting. I think that Pioneer might see this as equitable considering the situation. Hopefully this would be the last time that warranty work will be required.
 

KSSS

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Looks like I am going to Boise, United Rentals can't work on it in Pocatello. The upside is my ex girlfriend says I can stay there (she lives like 3 miles from Global Machinery) so.....maybe I can do some backfilling while I am in town. Got to look at the upsides in this. Global weil let me leave my trailer at the dealership so that's good of them. Hopefully they can figure this out. That machine has been amazingly irritating to run with this issue. I guess I should be thankful that I have been able to keep using it. I am taking it this week.
 

DGODGR

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Looks like I am going to Boise, United Rentals can't work on it in Pocatello. The upside is my ex girlfriend says I can stay there (she lives like 3 miles from Global Machinery) so.....maybe I can do some backfilling while I am in town. Got to look at the upsides in this. Global weil let me leave my trailer at the dealership so that's good of them. Hopefully they can figure this out. That machine has been amazingly irritating to run with this issue. I guess I should be thankful that I have been able to keep using it. I am taking it this week.

Thanks for the update. I'd love to hear (and I'm sure that you will share) an update during, and post, repair. Maybe Global will turn out to be a real gem! I hope that this is the LAST warranty issue that you have with this machine, and that this repair experience goes well for you.

Even if so, that still leaves some questions.
How much longer on the warranty period?
Will you continue to take the machine to Global if more issues present?...or are you considering eliminating Takeuchi from your fleet?
If you keep it, will you take the machine to Pioneer when the warranty period is over? If so, will Pioneer be able to get any support from Tak if they feel that they need it (like diagnostic info, update info, etc.)?
Have you even thought that far down the road?
Sucky questions aren't they? Unfortunately, I'd bet that you have already started asking yourself the same.

I think that there is a brand new TB257 sitting at a dealer along my daily commute. It's definitely an FR machine.....I'd love to hear your thoughts on the above, and on the machine as a whole.

Be careful with the whole "back filling" thing. We call them "ex"-girlfriends for a reason.
 
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