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tractor pans or scrapers which do you like better

Abscraperguy

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Aug 2, 2009
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265
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Grande Prairie, Ab
Call me old fashioned (not old! only 40 !) But I watched both trators and scrapers working on a highway project this summer and,sorry tractor guys, not a chance!There is no way a tractor and pull scraper can keep up to push/pull 657's . The tractors took way to long too load up and ground speed loaded or empty was not even close to the big scrapers. Now fuel economey is probabley a very different storey, but I'm thinkin it will be a long time before they park scrapers in favour of farm tractors. And before you assume I dont know what I'm yappin about, I have been operating for 22 years.

Hey you're comparing apples to oranges if you're comparing push/pull 657's with tractor scraper combos. The combined hp of 657's push/pulling is almost 2000 hp versus a tractor scraper combo will be in the 450-500hp range. If you have many millions of yards to move on one site I can see the 657's being an advantage but not if you have to transport them every coupla months.
 

Abscraperguy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
265
Location
Grande Prairie, Ab
Call me old fashioned (not old! only 40 !) But I watched both trators and scrapers working on a highway project this summer and,sorry tractor guys, not a chance!There is no way a tractor and pull scraper can keep up to push/pull 657's . The tractors took way to long too load up and ground speed loaded or empty was not even close to the big scrapers. Now fuel economey is probabley a very different storey, but I'm thinkin it will be a long time before they park scrapers in favour of farm tractors. And before you assume I dont know what I'm yappin about, I have been operating for 22 years.

I'll bet you're talking about the Hwy 43 twinning between Wembley and Beaverlodge. I wasn't on that crew but I know this much that a few of the tractor/scraper guys were cutting their teeth out there. They had never moved dirt in their lives.
 

Kman9090

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May 2, 2010
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Everywhere
They are not designed to be pushed to load, they are equiped with large tow cable out the front in case they get stuck, they are ideal for places where there are long hauls and lots of area to turn around one 9630 and 2 21yd pans are about 85ft. in length.

,

Your Deere dealer is lying to you. Right in the owners video for the 9630 it says that both the tractor and pans are designed for push loading. Even shows in the video of them being push loaded. It depends on the pans you are pulling. Stick an * behind the deere's they can get a load!

http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view&current=Deerepushing.jpg

http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view&current=D8Tpushing.jpg
 

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SPLUNK

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Jul 22, 2010
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EQUIPMENT SALES
Scrapers vs. Pull Pans

I have owned, rented, and operated both on many jobs over many years now. There is NO earthmoving equipment on the market today that can move material cheaper than the pull scraper train if operated correctly. Of course like anything else, it has to be in it's element. It does not do well in rock! However, It has so many advantages over trucks and self propelled scrapers that there is really no comparison. Tractors and pans will move dirt for 50 to 80% less money than scrapers or trucks if operated to their full potential! Many contractors however find it difficult to let the machines work as they are designed to work, they tend to try to apply the same principles to the pull pans as they did the self propelled scrapers and end up with bad results. It is all in the operator, if your operator has tunnel vision and believes the machine is inferior, it will be inferior. I f the operator or the super on the job is to hard headed or ignorant to learn how to correctly use this unit he will never have success with it!
 

SPLUNK

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I have used pull pan trains on Interstate widening applications with three 18 yd. scrapers behind one tractor to lay base rock as well as cut out waste material. It eliminates tandem trucks waiting to be loaded or unloaded as well as a dozer and compaction equipment on the base itself and we were able to turn this rig around in the median between the lanes of I 95 in Savannah Ga.
3 of these units replaced 2 dozen tandem dump trucks and a lot of babysitting of truck drivers!!
 

SPLUNK

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Operating these units side by side with 637 and 627 Cat scrapers, after a 90 day comparison, the tractors and scrapers had moved the same material for 60% less cost! The bottom line is all that matters to me, not speed or capacity! I do this kind of work to earn a living, not to support Cat salesmen or ATD truck dealers! i have even had instances where the local Cat dealer was paying Service Managers and Supers under the table to convince Owners that the tractors were not working on the jobs as well as self propelled scrapers, but like I say, they are not the perfect machine in all applications, but you don't use a D9 to do the job of a D5 either!
I will put my tractor and pan team agianst anyones self propelled units on any job that does not contian bad rock and I will provail! I will take home more profit!
 

alco

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here
I will put my tractor and pan team agianst anyones self propelled units on any job that does not contian bad rock and I will provail! I will take home more profit!

:popcorn This should get interesting.
 

JimBruce42

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Jan 15, 2006
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Pennsylvania
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operator
but you don't use a D9 to do the job of a D5 either!
I will put my tractor and pan team agianst anyones self propelled units on any job that does not contian bad rock and I will provail! I will take home more profit!

Maybe, but I've seen at least one D9 operator that could out grade some guys on 5's.:drinkup HOpe you aren't going against any of these guys with a fleet of 657's or a long haul with a bunch of 40 tonners or bigger. :popcorn

Your Deere dealer is lying to you. Right in the owners video for the 9630 it says that both the tractor and pans are designed for push loading. Even shows in the video of them being push loaded. It depends on the pans you are pulling. Stick an * behind the deere's they can get a load!

http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view&current=Deerepushing.jpg

http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view&current=D8Tpushing.jpg



Not gonna disagree with on whether you can push 'em or not, cause the JD2112e's come with an optional push block for "light pushing", however your bowls are not Deere bowls. Are they E-jects?
 

Kman9090

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May 2, 2010
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Everywhere
Yes they are E-ject which are now Caterpillar pans but are also approved to be push loaded. To be honest with 3 pans I wouldn't know about pushing them or not because that would put alot of stress on the 2nd pan and if you have enexperience operators on the tractor or push cat then the pans can get jamened up and cause lots of problems. On close hauls it realy wouldn't be very profitable to stick a D8 with them for the extra 4-5 yards they get on there but on this job where the average haul was 1.5 mile it actually worked quite well. We never had a problem doing this, we didn't break any hitches or tera up any pans i actually think it helps from breaking parts I mean you put the Deere in 3rd gear 3/4 throttle and let the 8 do most of the work.
 

JDOFMEMI

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Jan 3, 2007
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One thing I have noticed in these comparisons between operating costs of self propelled scrapers vs. tractors and pans is that they are basing a large part of the alleged savings in the purchase price. The thing is, the tractor and pan does not usually have the same lifespan as the self propelled unit, so that throws the numbers out of whack.

If the tractor and pan is usually retired after say, 5 years, then it should be depreciated over that timeframe.
If the self propelled scraper is used for say 20 years, then it should be depreciated accordingly.

Myself, I don't know any long lifed pan set ups, but a 20 year old scraper is still a desireable, productive unit. Many are in use here that are 30 years old even.

Take a tractor and 2 pans for about 400 to 500K, and a 5 year life, get say 100K per year depreciation. (I am talking simplified version, not tax version)
The scraper at 1.5M for 20 years is 75K per year. When you look at it this way, it evens the playing field somewhat.

I'm not saying this is the end, just something to think about
 

Kman9090

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I agree with everything you said SoCal. With the John Deere 9630's you'd be extremly lucky to get 5 years. Thank God they come with an an extended 3 year 5000 hour warranty. I think added up in 4 months we had over 250,000 dollar in repairs on the 12 John Deere we were running. Wheel Seals, Transmissions, Turbos, axles, cab mounts, windows breaking, oil leaks, etc. We had to have a John Deere mechanic on the job at all times. Sometimes they couldn't be fixed in the field we had to haul them a dealer so add up what hauling them in and out. Some would be hauled out and gone for weeks, so you'd be without a production traction for awhile.
 

Abscraperguy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
265
Location
Grande Prairie, Ab
I agree with everything you said SoCal. With the John Deere 9630's you'd be extremly lucky to get 5 years. Thank God they come with an an extended 3 year 5000 hour warranty. I think added up in 4 months we had over 250,000 dollar in repairs on the 12 John Deere we were running. Wheel Seals, Transmissions, Turbos, axles, cab mounts, windows breaking, oil leaks, etc. We had to have a John Deere mechanic on the job at all times. Sometimes they couldn't be fixed in the field we had to haul them a dealer so add up what hauling them in and out. Some would be hauled out and gone for weeks, so you'd be without a production traction for awhile.

Yikes was this in Iraq? I worked for an outfit for 3 years that ran 5 CaseIH STX's and I can remember two mechanical break downs. One was a hydraulic pump and was a hood latch that failed.
 
Last edited:

Jim Irwin

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
68
Location
Australia
I think both are good, but working in housing sub divisions in tight turning road cuts, and moving from job to job, the transport costs, the self propelled machine is best

Jim
 

cummins05

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
430
Location
Edmonton
Operating these units side by side with 637 and 627 Cat scrapers, after a 90 day comparison, the tractors and scrapers had moved the same material for 60% less cost! The bottom line is all that matters to me, not speed or capacity! I do this kind of work to earn a living, not to support Cat salesmen or ATD truck dealers! i have even had instances where the local Cat dealer was paying Service Managers and Supers under the table to convince Owners that the tractors were not working on the jobs as well as self propelled scrapers, but like I say, they are not the perfect machine in all applications, but you don't use a D9 to do the job of a D5 either!
I will put my tractor and pan team agianst anyones self propelled units on any job that does not contian bad rock and I will provail! I will take home more profit!

Well while your thinking a bit delusional I have a couple D12Rs you should come buy off me. :tong:tong:tong:D:D:D:drinkup:drinkup
 

nkh111

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Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
67
Location
missouri
I've always been curious about the lifespan of rubber tracks on tractors (such as challengers) that are used to pull pans. I have seen a couple around here in columbia missouri and it is the first time I have seen any around here. I would assume the ground here in central MO. would eat them up.
 

Kman9090

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It just really depends, I've seen some last 5000 hours and some last 500. The quad tracs have a problem with eating the lugs of the back two tracks because if you turn while loading it pulls the track to the inside and will rip the lugs of and then throw a track. The MT865's are a little bit better but as they get older they get slack in the track you have to really keep up the track pressure. Persoanlly it depends on the operator but in rock they don't stand a chance expecially the Challengers because you can be the best operator and not slip a track but when you turn the track is slipping. Worked for a company that tried running them in rock and went through 80k in tracks in 4 months.
 
Joined
Mar 25, 2010
Messages
19
Location
Louisiana
One thing I have noticed in these comparisons between operating costs of self propelled scrapers vs. tractors and pans is that they are basing a large part of the alleged savings in the purchase price. The thing is, the tractor and pan does not usually have the same lifespan as the self propelled unit, so that throws the numbers out of whack.

If the tractor and pan is usually retired after say, 5 years, then it should be depreciated over that timeframe.
If the self propelled scraper is used for say 20 years, then it should be depreciated accordingly.

Myself, I don't know any long lifed pan set ups, but a 20 year old scraper is still a desireable, productive unit. Many are in use here that are 30 years old even.

Take a tractor and 2 pans for about 400 to 500K, and a 5 year life, get say 100K per year depreciation. (I am talking simplified version, not tax version)
The scraper at 1.5M for 20 years is 75K per year. When you look at it this way, it evens the playing field somewhat.

I'm not saying this is the end, just something to think about


You make a valid point, but I think the piece that you might be missing is maintenance and repair costs. Parts and upkeep are low and relatively flat throughout the useful life of the tractor and pans, while Self propelled scrapers get pretty pricey, especially when they get up in age. For the most part, these tractors provide pretty good up-time as well.

Also, you're assuming that the train is worthless after 5 years, and this is way off. There are tractor buyers out there for both construction and farm work, so they are not difficult to move. The pans generally last as long as any self-propelled would as long as they are properly maintained. You can change out the tractor every 5 or so years, keep your pans, and still come out ahead by a fair amount. Also consider the advantage you get by not needing a pusher most of the time. That's engine and man hours saved.

Like any other piece of construction equipment, it has its place in the fleet. They are not going to put Cat out of business, but Cat buying into this system with E-Ject (considering they own the self propelled market) should tell you all you need to know about what these systems are capable of. If you can run a tractor and pans over a self-propelled in your conditions, you should do it every time. Its cheaper all around.
 

Kman9090

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May 2, 2010
Messages
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Everywhere
No defiantly not I am a conventional scraper guy! I've run alot of things and I would give anything to have a pair of push pull scrapers back. Don't get me wrong tractors and pans have their place. you wanna move dirt fast a 631 spread gets it done.

Much rather have this spread (had 2 D10's in that spread)
http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view&current=100_0008.jpg

Then this one (there were 10 there but couldn't fit them all in)
http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view&current=Deere.jpg

Another shot headed to a different borrow pit
http://s369.photobucket.com/albums/oo132/kman9090/?action=view&current=100_0011.jpg
 
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